how much of your snare sound should be coming from your overheads?

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skiz

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hey all

im a noobie to the homerecording stuff and i just want to know, how much of your actual final snare sound should come from the overheads? i ask this because my snare mic doesnt pick up that fat or great a sound no matter how i mic it. using an audix I-5 on it. The snare sound that comes from the overheads is much louder and better and natural sounding but im desparately trying to get a better and fatter sound from the snare mic its self

just wondering what everyone thinks of this
 
What I've always tried to achieve is a balanced image of the kit from the overheads, and letting the other mics simply supplement that sound. It seems to render a beefy drum sound as well as give a nice stereo spread. However, getting a good tone from your snare mic makes a big difference and it sounds like you may need to work on either your mic technique or the tuning of the snare itself. Good luck!
 
im really happy with the sound of the snare to my ear, just not recorded really. so i guess i need to toy with mic placements and everything too and have tried quite a few with no real success. perhaps im micing too close to the skin?

also the reason i asked the main question really is that if your snare mic is only supplementin the overheads, doesnt that make EQing the snare to your liking a bit of a mission? as the overheads will have the raw sound?
 
I usually use the top side of the snare to up the punch/beefiness of it, and do most of the actual EQing (getting the crisp snap sound) on the bottom snare mic. However, the overheads should contain the snare sound that you want (assuming you're miking from the top). Isolation of cymbals from everything else in overheads is a relatively pointless endeavor, as you are going to usually lose a lot of what the kit actually sounds like.
 
yeah im micing both top and bottom with audix I-5s

what do you think of these mics?

yeah i can definitely see what you mean about the overheads because they definitely give the kit a more natural sound thats a lot closer to what ones ear would pick up in the room.

do you think my room also might have an impact on how thin the sound is? i have sound deadening pads up on all the walls and the ceiling. Im not sure what kind of rooms are the best to record in. i can take them down to make the room a bit more live and was wondering if this would help at all?
 
also i was just wondering if i should roll off the lower end in the overhead condensers?
 
I just figured out your problem

You're mic'ing the top and the bottom of your snare with two different mics and you're not reversing the signal on the lower mic? Try taking the bottom mic out, and try it. Are you still getting a poor signal from the snare? If it is much better then you need to reverse the signal on the lower mic. This can often be done on a more sophisticated mixer (Unfortunately I don't have one of those) or my option is that you can get a phase reversal plug that you use like any adapter right on the mic cable.
The reason that this is happening is that you are sending two signals simultaneously that are occurring on two different ends of the curve and they are canceling each other out. It's like having two signals of the same frequency placed in the same place on your mix, instead of intensifying the signal, they cancel each other out.
You're using a relatively simple mic set-up, so I might just cut out the lower snare mic all together. I've gotten to a point where I'm recording my kit (six piece with lots of cymbals)
with a total of 4 mics. A coincidental stereo pair of matched small diaphragm condensers as overheads, a small dynamic instrument mic on my snare and a really good kick mic. The overheads pick up the whole kit nicely and have a good sound to the cymbals and hi-hat and then I can punch up the snare and kick when I need. Your room has to be good and you're good to go.
 
no i am reversing the phase of the bottom mic so i know thats not the prob

as far as a "good room" goes, what should i look for in a good room? my room is pretty much dead as i have deadening pads up on all the walls and ceiling but i can take them down as needed
 
no i am reversing the phase of the bottom mic so i know thats not the prob

as far as a "good room" goes, what should i look for in a good room? my room is pretty much dead as i have deadening pads up on all the walls and ceiling but i can take them down as needed

What the hell is a deadening pad? Blankets and stuff?

Don't get too caught up in the O/H's providing the main sound of your kit. That mantra only applies if your room, kit, and tuning is really good. If any one of those is off, and the room almost always is, you'd do better to mix the close mic's in more. I personally prefer to use the close mics for most of my snare sound. It works because my room isn't optimum for drum recording. Also, make damn sure your O/H's are set up properly. Out of phase O/H's will fuck up everything.
 
they just one meter by one meter frames that i made and have sound insulating material in them. like sound wool. use them to deaden the room for band practice so that the sound dont bounce around and get less feedback frm the PA

got about 30 of em on the walls n ceiling
 
im really happy with the sound of the snare to my ear, just not recorded really. so i guess i need to toy with mic placements and everything too and have tried quite a few with no real success. perhaps im micing too close to the skin?

Or perhaps not close enough? Not there, so I can't be sure. I've always found close mic placement to produce a fatter sound than positioning the mic further away, which usually equals a thinner, more distant sound.

also the reason i asked the main question really is that if your snare mic is only supplementin the overheads, doesnt that make EQing the snare to your liking a bit of a mission? as the overheads will have the raw sound?

Yeah, I'd say you'd get a little less control over your mix that way, but the real question is: do you like the snare sound coming from the overheads? If you do then it doesn't matter as much. There's always going to be some level of blend between the overheads and the close-miked sound. Also, you could EQ the overheads somewhat similarly if you felt you needed to--no law against that--and see if the adjustment doesn't change the sound of your cymbals too much, though that can be dicey territory. But that's the beauty of mixing (especially in the digital domain): try it and see!

also i was just wondering if i should roll off the lower end in the overhead condensers?

That depends on many factors; I, personally, have done plenty of both, i.e. leaving the overhead image completely flat, and rolling off all lows and even low-mids. I'd say the first question is: are you miking the toms? If not then you'll need all the beefy low-end you can get in your mix. If you are, and are going for an overall cleaner kit sound (as opposed to a more natural, more ambient drum sound), then you can EQ to taste on that. Try it and see how you like it.
 
... i ask this because my snare mic doesnt pick up that fat or great a sound no matter how i mic it...
... The snare sound that comes from the overheads is much louder and better and natural sounding but im desparately trying to get a better and fatter sound from the snare mic its self

Since it's us pretty hard to separate snare tone from the 'solo vs o/h combined, what if we went down this list -where would you land..?
Snare tone is 'good and natural' in the o/h's -but not the 'fat?
Snare tone itself (and how it's hit-
The snare as a mix of o/h and snare tracks- there's never being 'exactly in phase' here, but as the primary eq'/tone source of polarity and o/h distance.
Compression to alter or extend the shape (if this 'fat isn't natural at all)- either on the kit mix' or snare tracks?
 
if you are in a small room that's the main problem. comb filtering and low frequency build up are jacking up the sound that the mics capture.

Here are the things that have been successful for me in acheiving a nice snare crack in a small room.

1. Use a condensor mic in omni mode behind your left shoulder (assuming you are right handed). I use an AKG 414 with the low cut filter set to cut everthing below 160hz. this picks up a nice snare crack and will provide good overall sound for the entire kit. It also adds fatness to your kick sound. You may need to place a piece of studio foam between the Omni mic and your hi hat to tame it a bit. Make sure the foam isn't blocking the path between the snare and the mic.
Use this one mic in place of stereo overheads. Stereo OH's in a small room are just going to produce a crapy sound in most cases...especially cardioids. In your mix, pan this omni mic between 10 and 11 o'clock.

2. The I5 mic is good but not in a small room...it's too dark. go get a Sure beta 57A. It will immediately brighten up your sound. Pan this mic between 1 and 2 o'clock.

3. Mix these two sources according to the style of music you are recording.
for example, most pop music will require a 50/50 mix. For jazz, back down your top snare mic to almost nothing. For rock or any style requiring a big snare crack, turn down the OMNI slightly and boost your snare mic...40/60.

4. when mixing, you'll need to cut a lot of low end out of your mix so that your snare sound is heard. cut your top snare mic at 180hz. cutting as much as 10db is usually fine and will help define your snare sound. Also, add some high eq between 4k and 8k. use a moderate Q setting so that it covers this range but no more and no less. boost about 4 db.

5. compress the omi mic using a moderately fast attack and a medium release time at about 4:1 ratio. multi band plugs in your DAW might work better than a traditional comp. experiment with cutting some more low end on this track too. often cutting below the 200 - 300hz range works well. this makes your cymbals sustain longer without having to turn them up louder and also further enhances your snare. remember, when compressing drums, the low end gets louder so, the more you compress, the more low end you need to cut with EQ.

6. cutting all of the low end from your snare and omni tracks will clear up your sound considerably but, it also "robs" your tracks of a lot of energy. It is absolutely imperative that you pump them back up to get that crack. You need to do few things to accomplish this.
First, send your entire drum mix (all tracks) to a buss.
Second, you need to run this buss mix into a good pre-amp. this boost your signal back to a nice hot level and adds some distortion. Distortion is part of what makes your snare sound. turn up the gain on the pre-amp until you just start to hear the distortion effect, then back it off one notch.
Third, compress this mix again. some pre-amps will handle both for you.

7. you should now be getting a pretty good sound. If not, it's probably attributable to one, or both, of two things:

Pre-amps and room.

These are the two biggest limiting factors in recording drums...third I would say is mic selection.

Pre-amp suggestions: JLM audio TMP-8. This pre gives a big fat warm and somewhat aggressive sound. it's about 2k from JLM audio. I love mine. you'll find it at jlmaudio.com. Be sure to order both sets of limiter plugs with the unit. These allow you to record straight into a DAW while still leaving headroom for EQ.
Focusrite Red 5. This pre is about the same price but only has 4 pre's instead of 8. Excellent clean pure sound. great for pop,rock and jazz. probably too clean for certain types of music that require more attitude from the drums.
Pre-amps will make a huge difference.

Room: if you are in a small room on carpet, you won't get that snare sound you are looking for. concrete floor or wood floors are best. use as small a rug as you can get away with just to keep your kick from creeping away from you. A hard floor and a soft ceiling is a good combination. Treat a drywalled ceiling with some foam spaced at fairly close intervals accross the ceiling. treat an open rafter ceiling with standard fiberglass insulation. just "spot" treat the walls with foam anywhere you have a drum or cymball nearby...especially if your hi-hat is close to a wall. no more foam is needed. too much foam is not good. If you can afford it, buy some bass traps for the corners. Auralex makes affordable kits, and real-traps makes the high dollar professional units.

Finally - the last thing that makes a good lively snare sound is reverb. In a small room, this is almost impossible to acheive using room mics or digital reverb units. The best method I've come accross is to use "Drumagog" and the Steven Slate Z4 room sounds. You can purchase both from drumagog.com. The way I use it is to place drumagog in an effects bus and load the z4 sample. Turn the mix to 100 percent. Then, key this sound by turning up the effects send knob on your snare drum track. This will give you a high quality room sound to add to your snare track. If you add a compressor pluging to the z4 track, it makes a very nice big reverb sound that you can turn way up in the mix.

Let me know if this helps. :)
 
if you are in a small room that's the main problem. comb filtering and low frequency build up are jacking up the sound that the mics capture.

Here are the things that have been successful for me in acheiving a nice snare crack in a small room.

1. Use a condensor mic in omni mode behind your left shoulder (assuming you are right handed). I use an AKG 414 with the low cut filter set to cut everthing below 160hz. this picks up a nice snare crack and will provide good overall sound for the entire kit. It also adds fatness to your kick sound. You may need to place a piece of studio foam between the Omni mic and your hi hat to tame it a bit. Make sure the foam isn't blocking the path between the snare and the mic. this works best if your kit is centered in the room.
Use this one mic in place of stereo overheads. Stereo OH's in a small room are just going to produce a crapy sound in most cases...especially cardioids. In your mix, pan this omni mic between 10 and 11 o'clock.

2. The I5 mic is good (I own one) but not in a small room...it's too dark. go get a Sure beta 57A. It will immediately brighten up your sound. Pan this mic between 1 and 2 o'clock. Use the I5 on one of your toms...killer!

3. Mix these two sources according to the style of music you are recording.
for example, most pop music will require a 50/50 mix. For jazz, back down your top snare mic to almost nothing. For rock or any style requiring a big snare crack, turn down the OMNI slightly and boost your snare mic...40/60.

4. when mixing, you'll need to cut a lot of low end out of your mix so that your snare sound is heard. cut your top snare mic at 180hz. cutting as much as 10db is usually fine and will help define your snare sound. Also, add some high eq between 4k and 8k. use a moderate Q setting so that it covers this range but no more and no less. boost about 4 db.

5. compress the omi mic using a moderately fast attack and a medium release time at about 4:1 ratio. multi band plugs in your DAW might work better than a traditional comp. experiment with cutting some more low end on this track too. often cutting below the 200 - 300hz range works well. this makes your cymbals sustain longer without having to turn them up louder and also further enhances your snare. remember, when compressing drums, the low end gets louder so, the more you compress, the more low end you need to cut with EQ.

6. cutting all of the low end from your snare and omni tracks will clear up your sound considerably but, it also "robs" your tracks of a lot of energy. It is absolutely imperative that you pump them back up to get that crack. You need to do few things to accomplish this.
First, send your entire drum mix (all tracks) to a buss.
Second, you need to run this buss mix into a good pre-amp. this boost your signal back to a nice hot level and adds some distortion. Distortion is part of what makes your snare sound. turn up the gain on the pre-amp until you just start to hear the distortion effect, then back it off one notch.
Third, compress this mix again. some pre-amps will handle both for you.

7. you should now be getting a pretty good sound. If not, it's probably attributable to one, or both, of two things:

Pre-amps and room.

These are the two biggest limiting factors in recording drums...third I would say is mic selection.

Pre-amp suggestions: JLM audio TMP-8. This pre gives a big fat warm and somewhat aggressive sound. it's about 2k from JLM audio. I love mine. you'll find it at jlmaudio.com. Be sure to order both sets of limiter plugs with the unit. These allow you to record straight into a DAW while still leaving headroom for EQ.
Focusrite Red 5. This pre is about the same price but only has 4 pre's instead of 8. Excellent clean pure sound. great for pop,rock and jazz. probably too clean for certain types of music that require more attitude from the drums.
Pre-amps will make a huge difference.

Room: if you are in a small room on carpet, you won't get that snare sound you are looking for. concrete floor or wood floors are best. use as small a rug as you can get away with just to keep your kick from creeping away from you. A hard floor and a soft ceiling is a good combination. Treat a drywalled ceiling with some foam spaced at fairly close intervals accross the ceiling. treat an open rafter ceiling with standard fiberglass insulation. just "spot" treat the walls with foam anywhere you have a drum or cymball nearby...especially if your hi-hat is close to a wall. no more foam is needed. too much foam is not good. If you can afford it, buy some bass traps for the corners. Auralex makes affordable kits, and real-traps makes the high dollar professional units.

Finally - the last thing that makes a good lively snare sound is reverb. In a small room, this is almost impossible to acheive using room mics or digital reverb units. The best method I've come accross is to use "Drumagog" and the Steven Slate Z4 room sounds. You can purchase both from drumagog.com. The way I use it is to place drumagog in an effects bus and load the z4 sample. Turn the mix to 100 percent. Then, key this sound by turning up the effects send knob on your snare drum track. This will give you a high quality room sound to add to your snare track. If you add a compressor pluging to the z4 track, it makes a very nice big reverb sound that you can turn way up in the mix.

Let me know if this helps. :)
 
I just have to say this...........

Why is it that some of the simplest old recordings done of the great jazz drummers of the past had such great sound? I doubt very much that they used such sophisticated and complicated mic set-ups as we are talking about............. just an observation.

Maybe they put more concentration on the dynamics of their playing?
 
Why is it that some of the simplest old recordings done of the great jazz drummers of the past had such great sound? I doubt very much that they used such sophisticated and complicated mic set-ups as we are talking about............. just an observation.

Maybe they put more concentration on the dynamics of their playing?

They used samples!
 
Yes, it's true that the drummer is the biggest factor in getting a good sound...not the gear or recording techniques. But, let's not under estimate how good the rooms, equipment, and engineers are in most professional studios. Even the great "old" jazz recordings were done in bigger rooms than most us will ever have the chance to record in. Most people don't realize just how much of an advantage this is. In addition, the mics were better, the consoles were killer, the signal processing was awesome and the engineers had enormous talent. Just because they were recorded 50 years ago doesn't mean these people weren't top notch professionals. Couple this with the ability of a guy like Buddy Rich or Louie Belson and you end up with one Hell of a recording.

The issue here is to help a guy like Skiz get a good sound, in his own home studio, with whatever level of talent he/she has.
Skiz, I suggest you try some of these techniques for yourself. I'm quite confident your sound will improve "big time". Mine has improved significantly over the years and I'm no where near as talented or accomplished a drummer as the great jazz players of yester-year.
 
There's a lot to be said for the oldskool engineers, with no solo button on the desks, for example, they had to know what compression, EQ, etc. etc. to add to each sound when they had a whole track playing back at them, and a lot of the time they had to record straight to tape with no fallback.
No 'fix it the mix' 'coz there wasn't a mix (as such)!
 
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