How long are YOUR patch cables behind your rack(s)?

[RecordingMaster]

Hi there,

I currently have a standalone rack setup. It's like a side car that sits next to my desk. I have 8 different items in it at the moment and room for a couple more. Thing is, the units on the bottom (and frankly even halfway down) and hard to see from my chair. So when tracking and setup up the different preamp settings, or using an OTB comp when mixing, I have to pretty much get out of my seat and sit on the floor. This IS NOT practical (and I'm wondering how the hell anyone else would do it in my situation). Because what you are hearing when on the floor is not quite the same as sitting up in the sweet spot with speakers at ear level, especially if you're making fine adjustments and want to hear DETAIL.

That being said, I'm wanting to rig up a system where most of my rack gear is to the right and left of my sitting position atop my desk, and then I'll have my monitors on top of those. So I'm going to do the usual Ikea RAST night stand thing. Cut down so they only fit 4-6 u each. One on each side.

I will hang onto my side-car rack because I will have my new Mackie VLZ 16 channel over there with 8 direct outs (in order to use an additional 8 analog good sounding pre's in my setup) routed to the patch bay which will be in one of my desktop ikea rack units.

Finally my question...all of the above in mind, how long are everyone's cables that lead to the patchbay? Currently with my modest side car setup, the longest ones I use are 3' and that's to go from the bottom unit to the patchbay at the top. Everything else is either 1' or 1.5 feet. So with my new setup idea, my cables will need to be drastically longer in comparison. Do you think that will notice any degradation? Also it will be DAMN EXPENSIVE!! For a pack of eight multicolour TRS 1.5' cables, it is about $40USD. But for one single 5' or longer cable, we're looking at $30-40 for just one!! How in the world does anybody afford that when they have a spaced out racking setup like I want to do?

Sorry for the novel, I just wanted to be complete with my idea/info.questions. Thanks in advance for the input!

 

[KineticSound]

As long as you are using a quality shielded cable, the increase in length shouldn't cause an issue. If the cable run was exponentially longer (e.g. 50ft or more) then it could be a different story.

Have you thought about wiring your own cables? You can pick up cable components from companies like Redco and make your own, of they can build them for you at a reasonable cost. That would be more cost effective than purchasing from a music store.

 

[Bobbsy]

If your gear is balanced (and mention of TRS suggests that) you could literally feed your signals for miles and not notice a difference. Think of your mic cables...a much lower, much more vulnerable signal and I bet you regularly use cables 20 feet or more long.

If your signals are unbalanced, using decent quality screened (shielded in American parlance) cable you should still be fine. Keep your signal cabling neat and away from AC power cables just to be safe.

Two other things...first consider an actual patch panel on the front of your rack. This would make things way easier for you after the work of installing it.

Second, a big +1 to teaching yourself to make your own cables. The soldering involved in TRS and XLR cables is the easiest there is and good practice--and you'll save a fortune AND be able to make up cables exactly the length you want.

 

[RecordingMaster]

As long as you are using a quality shielded cable, the increase in length shouldn't cause an issue. If the cable run was exponentially longer (e.g. 50ft or more) then it could be a different story.

Have you thought about wiring your own cables? You can pick up cable components from companies like Redco and make your own, of they can build them for you at a reasonable cost. That would be more cost effective than purchasing from a music store.

Thanks for the replies pals! High quality shielded cables? Well I am not too sure how high quality, but these are what I use. They are balanced and their intended purpose it for patching. It is a Canadian brand so you may not recognize, but they are by Yorkvile (Apex, Link, etc) which is l**** the go to company here for that stuff. Good quality products and lifetime warranty on any cables. Seem ok?

However for this purpose I will need a longer run, so probably these which are about 6.5 feet. So what worries me is this signal path - does it seem a little detrimentally long with the cables I am using (not $10B cable run installs like the studios in LA)?
Typical tracking chain: 20' XLR mic cable > 50' snake > Pre amp XLR in > Pre amp OUT via 6.5' TRS cable into Patch bay in > Patch bay out with 1.5' TRS cable > AD converter line-in access on patch bay > 1.5' TRS cable from patch bay to AD Converter actual line-in jack > Firewire to PT

Then for mixing (mind you this is AFTER the signal has passed through the above chain during tracking)...
Typical mixing activity for outboard gear: PT out via firewire > AD converter line out via 1.5' TRS cable into patch bay > Patchbay out with 1.5' TRS cable > Outboard compressor line-in access on patchbay > 3' TRS cable from patchbay to actual compressor line-in > compressor line-out via 3' cable to patch bay > patchbay out with 1.5' TRS cable to AD converter line-in access on patch bay > patch bay out to actual line-in on AD converter > firewire to PT

Seems confusing but if you follow the flow it makes a complete round trip. I can't think of any other simple way to do it. So this is fine then? I do all of the above now but with much shorter cable (max 3', but usually just 1'). Patchbay inputs/outputs are all half-normalled on the bay ( or whatever it's called when what you plug into the back of #1 make it accessible to via the front #1 jack). Like an extension cord so I don't need to go behind the racks ever.

What do y'all think?

 

[RecordingMaster]

If your gear is balanced (and mention of TRS suggests that) you could literally feed your signals for miles and not notice a difference. Think of your mic cables...a much lower, much more vulnerable signal and I bet you regularly use cables 20 feet or more long.

If your signals are unbalanced, using decent quality screened (shielded in American parlance) cable you should still be fine. Keep your signal cabling neat and away from AC power cables just to be safe.

Two other things...first consider an actual patch panel on the front of your rack. This would make things way easier for you after the work of installing it.

Second, a big +1 to teaching yourself to make your own cables. The soldering involved in TRS and XLR cables is the easiest there is and good practice--and you'll save a fortune AND be able to make up cables exactly the length you want.

Yep, gear is all balanced +4 ins/outs. Cables always neat!

And yep, I do have a patch panel. Please see my reply to KineticSound above to see my scenario (pretty typical and very basic).

 

[miroslav]

I have rack to patchbay cable runs in excess of 20' in some cases, and I even have some unbalanced runs at 20'...
...and it's all good.

You're over-worrying about it.

Get a spool of wire, some connetors, and make your own....that's one way to save $$$.
Check eBay for people selling pieces of mult-channel cables....often you can find real cheap deals for nice cables. Get some Gepco or Mogami and you'll be good to go.

 

[Bobbsy]

Seems confusing but if you follow the flow it makes a complete round trip. I can't think of any other simple way to do it. So this is fine then? I do all of the above now but with much shorter cable (max 3', but usually just 1'). Patchbay inputs/outputs are all half-normalled on the bay ( or whatever it's called when what you plug into the back of #1 make it accessible to via the front #1 jack). Like an extension cord so I don't need to go behind the racks ever.

What do y'all think?

I repeat what I said earlier...with balanced audio you can literally feed your signal for miles before you hear any difference, much less a change from 1.5 feet to 6 feet.

A couple of anecdotes: first, the last TV facility I built had a longest cable run (from our largest studio) into the central machine room of 80+ metres. That was no problem at all and tested as indistinguishable to having the gear in the same room.

Second, while working in London, I visited a phone company facility called "ISPC" (International Sound Programme Circuits) several times--they threw great Christmas parties! Anyway, they literally had a wall about 50 feet long of audio patch panels--one end was connections to local users; the other end was links to cities all over the world. "New Delhi 1 and 2" or "Rio de Janeiro 1, 2, 3, 4". Now, I won't claim the signals went all that way just on simple copper--lots of pre amps, satellites, undersea fibres etc. on the way. However, even within the room they had patch cords as long as 50 feet or more.

 

[moresound]

As far as using the racked gear you just gotta get that rack up on something so as all you have to do is turn a bit to your side and make the final adjustments without getting out of your monitors field.

 

[RecordingMaster]

I have rack to patchbay cable runs in excess of 20' in some cases, and I even have some unbalanced runs at 20'...
...and it's all good.

You're over-worrying about it.

Get a spool of wire, some connetors, and make your own....that's one way to save $$$.
Check eBay for people selling pieces of mult-channel cables....often you can find real cheap deals for nice cables. Get some Gepco or Mogami and you'll be good to go.

Thanks for the input! Yeah I assumed I was over-worrying but the reassurance is always nice. As for cables,well I've already got the majority of cables of what i need. The only ones i'll be buying are probably just 1 or two of these. I know these are just run of the mill generic cables, but I assume they should be fine? I don't normally buy into all the cable hype. Obviously I don't shop at the Liquidation World for $2 cables (maybe headphone extensions! ), but I figure a good generic, well cared for (and never moved) cable like I linked to should be ok?

I just won't have time to wire up cables. I didn't get into this to learn soldiering (although I am learning), I just have a means to an end - getting music done NOW- for my own projects and others. In my spare time when I have nothing else going on (which is never), then I can rewire everything by hand. lol

 

[RecordingMaster]

I repeat what I said earlier...with balanced audio you can literally feed your signal for miles before you hear any difference, much less a change from 1.5 feet to 6 feet.

A couple of anecdotes: first, the last TV facility I built had a longest cable run (from our largest studio) into the central machine room of 80+ metres. That was no problem at all and tested as indistinguishable to having the gear in the same room.

Second, while working in London, I visited a phone company facility called "ISPC" (International Sound Programme Circuits) several times--they threw great Christmas parties! Anyway, they literally had a wall about 50 feet long of audio patch panels--one end was connections to local users; the other end was links to cities all over the world. "New Delhi 1 and 2" or "Rio de Janeiro 1, 2, 3, 4". Now, I won't claim the signals went all that way just on simple copper--lots of pre amps, satellites, undersea fibres etc. on the way. However, even within the room they had patch cords as long as 50 feet or more.

That's pretty crazy and warmly reassuring! Thanks!

 

[RecordingMaster]

As far as using the racked gear you just gotta get that rack up on something so as all you have to do is turn a bit to your side and make the final adjustments without getting out of your monitors field.

Yes exactly my intention. I'm just going to grab a few of these (or just slap a few pieces of lumber together and make the damn things in 5 mins each) and cut them down to be 4-5 U's and have them on either side of me, sitting atop my desk, not built in so I have flexibility later for moving stuff around. That way I can have my A,B and maybe even my C set of monitors up there, on isolation pads and angled so tweeters are at my ear level of course.

Can't wait for the new house...wherever that's going to be! I just put the for sale stake in the ground last night...sitting patiently by the phone!

 

[Raymeous]

My general "rule" is to use the shortest cables you can while not pulling on them too tightly.

The cables have to reach from place to place (say keyboard to interface) without straining the cable, or the equipment it's plugged into. A big pool of excess cable on the floor is not only a potential trip hazard, but can it also introduce unwanted noise in the lines and therefore your recordings. Tidy cabling also help reduce the cluttered, unprofessional look of your studio, which will help you feel more relaxed while you're there. For me it also reduces the amount of desk juggling you have to do when you just want to reach over and twist a knob, withoug having to dodge 10 soda cans and a sticky burger wrapper. Kind of off topic, but somewhat related.

 

[Bobbsy]

As long as we're talking balanced circuits a few extra feet makes no difference whatsoever to the risk of noise. Also, although a bird's nest of extra cable is a "bad thing" (note the technical language there) sometimes the use of longer cables allows you to actually do a more tidy cable run, for example running around the skirting boards to get to the other side of the room rather than going across the middle of the floor.

I guess what I'm saying is that, while using 100 metres of cable where 10 would do is silly and messy, don't be scared to move from 5 metres to 10 metres because of noise worries--with balanced gear this won't make any difference at all.