How do I Double a single vocal track?

[ido1957]

I have one backing vocal track and I want to try and double it so I can pan it L/R to get it clearer in the mix (away from center where the lead vocals are). Panning 10% just sort of makes it sound unbalanced.
I recall reading people saying delay it, pitch shift it or something to that affect.
I have Sonar's V-Vocal but I'm not too familiar with it so any help there too would be appreciated.
Any benefit from making more than one modified copy?

Edit
Skip to :46 and 2:55 for the doubling of the female backups. Took the single track, copied it, did the cents thing panned L/R. Let me know what you think.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=26152

 

[Farview]

The easiest way is to throw a stereo chorus on it.

The best way is to sing it again.

You can play with pitch shifters, pitching one side up 9 cents and the other side down 9 cents and then adding 20-30ms delay, but that is really just a chorus that doesn't sweep.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I have one backing vocal track and I want to try and double it so I can pan it L/R to get it clearer in the mix (away from center where the lead vocals are).

There is no difference between this and having one track panned center. All the pan knob does is control how much goes to each side. The center setting puts equal amounts in left and right.

Panning 10% just sort of makes it sound unbalanced.
I recall reading people saying delay it, pitch shift it or something to that affect.
I have Sonar's V-Vocal but I'm not too familiar with it so any help there too would be appreciated.
Any benefit from making more than one modified copy?

You can copy the track an put an effect on one then pan them differently, but there are limits to what this can do without sounding unnatural or causing problems with mono compatibility. As Farview says, double tracking is a good option.

Maybe it doesn't need to be "clearer in the mix". Just because a track is not easily identifiable in the mix doesn't mean it's not adding something. After all, not every element can be out front. Try turning it down just until you think you can't hear it, then mute and un-mute it to see what it contributes.

 

[legionserial]

The best way is to sing it again.

^^^^This.

You can go to all the lengths of doubling the track you want, but singing it again is simply a matter of singing it, same as the first time. Play it again/sing it again is the most logical thing to do if you want 2 tracks of anything.

....Unless you don't actually like playing an instrument/singing, of course. In which case, don't do it in the first place, take up crochet instead.

 

[ido1957]

Skip to :46 and 2:55 for the doubling of the female backups. Took the single track, copied it, did the cents thing panned L/R. Let me know what you think.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=26152

 

[NL5]

It sounds OK to me. Still kinda lost though. If you just can't track a second take, you can probably get this to work even better with a little work. Are they hard panned? They still sound pretty centered, but that sometimes happens with this technique.

 

[Gentoo]

What I do is duplicate the track. I pan both tracks in opposite directions by between 45 and 75% depending on the song. Then I move the new track ever so slightly out of sync, usually 10 milliseconds does the trick.

 

[ido1957]

It sounds OK to me. Still kinda lost though. If you just can't track a second take, you can probably get this to work even better with a little work. Are they hard panned? They still sound pretty centered, but that sometimes happens with this technique.

Yep - 100% panned L/R.

 

[ido1957]

Let's have your feedback - which version of the harmonies do you like best?

First Version Single track - Dec 11, 2010 - 320MP3...
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=26152

Second Version two tracks - Dec 14, 2010 - 320MP3
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=26193

 

[miroslav]

The second version harmonies sound better than the first. They are more defined.

One thing you could do with the harmony/female vocal is to split/double it...delay one of the tracks by short amount (just enough to "separate" them apart)...and then pan one hard left and the other hard right...and leave the lead vocal always in the center.

It sounds a bit odd with the harmony just coming out of the left side....IMO.

Also...on your lead vocal...you have a tendency to not enunciate the ends of words...and it sounds like you swallow them before finishing...which makes for poor clarity of the lyrics/vocals.

 

[RAMI]

Don't expect too much good things to happen by copying the track. That alone does absolutely nothing other than make it louder. Nudging one track over a couple of milliseconds doesn't do much either, it just makes it a delay. You'd get the exact same effect if you put a delay on the dry track and panned the delay to one side.

 

[miroslav]

True...but at least you end up with the backing vocal/harmony coming out of both sides - L/R, rather than just the left side...so it does do something and it does sound different than just having it on the left.
If the listener moves to one side they don't "lose" the backup harmony.

Yeah, the delay instead of split/double works...but the reason I prefer splitting/doubling instead of just applying a delay to a track and panning that, is because it's visually more "accurate" in the DAW for me...seeing and treating it like another vocal track...
...plus I mix OTB and like dealing with specific tracks for everything.

 

[Gentoo]

Don't expect too much good things to happen by copying the track. That alone does absolutely nothing other than make it louder. Nudging one track over a couple of milliseconds doesn't do much either, it just makes it a delay. You'd get the exact same effect if you put a delay on the dry track and panned the delay to one side.

I am not so sure if I agree with that. If you do it right it will make the vocals sound fuller and they will be consistent. Singers usually sing slightly differently with every take so your vocals may not go well together.

 

[Gentoo]

True...but at least you end up with the backing vocal/harmony coming out of both sides - L/R, rather than just the left side...so it does do something and it does sound different than just having it on the left.
If the listener moves to one side they don't "lose" the backup harmony.

Yeah, the delay instead of split/double works...but the reason I prefer splitting/doubling instead of just applying a delay to a track and panning that, is because it's visually more "accurate" in the DAW for me...seeing and treating it like another vocal track...
...plus I mix OTB and like dealing with specific tracks for everything.

What I do is duplicate the main vocal track then record a separate track for the harmonies. If this is what is meant then I apologize. Anyway, I duplicate the main vocal track and move one (usually the new one by 10 ms forward) then record one separate harmony track.

 

[RAMI]

I am not so sure if I agree with that. If you do it right it will make the vocals sound fuller and they will be consistent. Singers usually sing slightly differently with every take so your vocals may not go well together.

Which part don't you agree with? Both statements I made were fact, not opinion.

1) Copying a track doesn't do anything other than make it louder. Fact.

2) Moving one of the tracks over a couple of milliseconds turns it into a delay. Fact. (Well, it's a fact in the sense that you could accomplish the exact same thing by using a delay set to repeat once, and pan it wherever you want to pan it).

Singers usually sing slightly differently with every take

Exactly. That's what makes doing 2 takes the best way to double a part, in my opinion. If you're doubling your own voice and it "doesn't go well together", then you've got a problem.

 

[RAMI]

True...but at least you end up with the backing vocal/harmony coming out of both sides - L/R, rather than just the left side...so it does do something and it does sound different than just having it on the left.
If the listener moves to one side they don't "lose" the backup harmony.

Yeah, the delay instead of split/double works...but the reason I prefer splitting/doubling instead of just applying a delay to a track and panning that, is because it's visually more "accurate" in the DAW for me...seeing and treating it like another vocal track...
...plus I mix OTB and like dealing with specific tracks for everything.

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with that. Chances are, the vocalist isn't accessible any more, which is why some kind of artificial doubling has to go down.

I just wanted to make it clear...again....that simply copying and pasting a part does not make it anything other than louder. It doesn't make it fuller, warmer, steroer, thicker...or any other adjective anyone tries to attach to it. I'm beginning to believe this is the most blown out of proportion misconception, because I find myself saying this about 4 times a week.

 

[Farview]

I don't bother copying, I just throw a doubler on the vocal. Just a dual pitch shift with about 9 cents up on one side and 9 cents down on the other and a predelay of 15 and 25ms.

This is only if I can't get the singer to double themselves, either because they are not available (I mix a lot of stuff that was recorded someplace else) or the singer is one of those people that can't sing anything the same way twice.

 

[D_Vincent]

when I only have one guitar track or one backup vocal I duplicate the track and move the duplicated track slightly.

Example of how its done in reaper...click on duplicated track...press f2 and change position by 10.

original position on example track was

0.01.500

After moving position slightly it reads

0.01.510

only changing position by 10 works well...give it a try.

 

[ido1957]

Yep - if you search throught this thread you'll see where I did the "single track" versus "two separate tracks" mixing.