How can you tell if someone is "lyrically talented"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mjr
  • Start date Start date
mjr

mjr

ADD -- blessing and curse
How can you tell if someone is talented when it comes to writing lyrics? Is it in the style of lyrics? Is it a clever wordplay in the lyrics? Is it use of metaphors? Is it rhyming style, meter, etc.? Is it the number of "quality" songs a person has written?

How do you tell?
 
What is art? I don't know, but I know it when I hear it. I also know crap when I hear it.
 
Its all those but to me the true talent is the ability to draw out emotion within the lyrics. And delivery is just as important to me as the lyrics. You can have good lyrics but if you have a lazy flow then its not gonna have that wow factor.

Ex. Fabolous

Ex. of great lyrics and flow: Bone Thugs and Harmony
 
As Track Rat indicates, since lyric writting is an art form it is hard to verbalize what is talent and what is not.

I look at lyric writting more as a skill than a talent. Relaying emotion, while selecting words that rhyme, flow, are clever, etc. often requires more than raw talent - it requires a committment to the craft.

Candidly, I look at playing an instrument the same way, while there may be some fundamental talent - only committment, hard work and a dedication to learning theory, etc. can turn talent into skill.

Some writers are very skilled at creating complex images and stories - which allow the listener to form thier own opionion of what the story line means(such as Neil Peart from Rush). Some writers use very average daily conversational words to tell a rather direct story which requires little interpretation (such as Tom Petty or Bruce). Each of these writers has skill, although they are different in thier approach.

I happen to appreciate the rather standard approach of more conversational lyrics, which clearly tell a story, with words that rhyme (hopefully avoiding too many cliche rhymes).

I guess at the end of the day, if the listener (or reader) appreciates, identifies with or can escape into the words, than the writer is skilled.
 
if you can't recognize talent when you see/hear it, well..... what can anyone tell you?

that in itself can be a talent. some producers have made most of their money by simply recognizing talent when they saw it.
 
I believe talent and skill are two very different things.

One of my teachers at university in my musician class, that i hold in high regard once told me talent can be curse. It took me a while to really figure that out, you know acknowledge what that really meant.
Often talent (in relation to natural ability), can derive no motivation to succeed. You probably think im insane saying that. But think about it, having talent and motivation is two very different things. Talent is of no use to anyone if one does not want to pursue that road. Motivation is the real herroine for success. I could go on about it, but thats not the topic is, just thought i'd chuck in my $0.02 on natural talent there.

That being said, writing is something that HAS to be motivational. You don't write lyrics (or a song) because your talented, you write lyrics/song because you theres something you want out, and its pushing for you to do that, you strive for it to be out. And over time it becomes a common practice, second nature, you become more knowledgable in how words link up, how one note in a melody can send shivers down someones spine.

The emotion is the same, yet the way you portray it is more creative and crafty after a while, beacuse you get bored of the way you did it yesterday.

That my friends, is skill.
 
Not to hijack the thread - but hand in glove hit on an important fact (which I think in essense agreed with my reference to talent vs. skill).

I've worked with literally hundreds of musicians and writers. I've seem some that were truely gifted (raw talent) who will never do much more than sit in a basement occasionally jamming with people (often while verbalizing on how "unfair" the music industry is). While I marvel at thier talent I see the "curse" because it comes so easy, they have no motivation to refine the talent into "skill" - and talent can only take you so far.

On the other hand some of the most well rounded, "successful" (on a commerical level) musicians I know are not overly blessed with talent - but have worked to gain musical knowledge and perfect the "skill" - these are the people who repeatedly gig, appear on recordings and pull in royalty checks.

Talent can be a curse if the person becomes blind to the need for skill.
 
mikeh said:
Not to hijack the thread - but hand in glove hit on an important fact (which I think in essense agreed with my reference to talent vs. skill).

I've worked with literally hundreds of musicians and writers. I've seem some that were truely gifted (raw talent) who will never do much more than sit in a basement occasionally jamming with people (often while verbalizing on how "unfair" the music industry is). While I marvel at thier talent I see the "curse" because it comes so easy, they have no motivation to refine the talent into "skill" - and talent can only take you so far.

On the other hand some of the most well rounded, "successful" (on a commerical level) musicians I know are not overly blessed with talent - but have worked to gain musical knowledge and perfect the "skill" - these are the people who repeatedly gig, appear on recordings and pull in royalty checks.

Talent can be a curse if the person becomes blind to the need for skill.
Click to expand...

Those are great points. I think that's why I'll post lyrics or pieces of a song on here to ask what people think. It's to help me "hone my craft", so to speak. I don't want to be a decent singer/songwriter, or even a "good" singer/songwriter. I want to be a great singer/songwriter.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about:

I've heard songs before from "talented" songwriters, and thought to myself "I could write stuff like that!"

I've also heard stuff that's been recorded, and thought to myself "How did this ever make it on an album?"

Of course, I've heard songs written where you just think to yourself "That's genius!"

I suppose, then, the objective wouldn't necessarily be to be a talented singer/songwriter/musician, but to be a skilled singer/songwriter/musician.
 
mjr said:
Those are great points. I think that's why I'll post lyrics or pieces of a song on here to ask what people think. It's to help me "hone my craft", so to speak. I don't want to be a decent singer/songwriter, or even a "good" singer/songwriter. I want to be a great singer/songwriter.

...
I suppose, then, the objective wouldn't necessarily be to be a talented singer/songwriter/musician, but to be a skilled singer/songwriter/musician.
Click to expand...

Some very good points have been made and i acknowldedge that most of what has been said about the overly talented. I am one. listen to my song. I've had six months of guitar lessons lol. everything i do involves talent. what i have of it. and i admit sometimes it's hard to be motivated when making cool sounds comes so easy. i am limited as has been stated. beyond what my talent has helped me develop, i've got little to rely on. where i am strong i am very strong, but where i am weak, i am very weak. if you get my drift. But.... and this is a big one....

a singer/songwriter/musician who has nothing but skill can be as bad off as a purely talented individual. i've found that the purely skilled tend to put out music without groove. without heart. example: Ingwe Malmsteen, (sp?) created a whole new way of playing. His sweep picking style was very new and very fast. but it also had heart. i believe Ingwe is talented as well as skilled. Some time after his style hit the scene, you could hear Ingwe clones all over the place. All of them fast and using the same techniques as Ingwe, but not creating music that was as moving. ie: they were skilled but not always talented.

I believe it takes both talent and skill to really be great. Look at the songwriteres who have succeeded big time or made a huge impression on the world of music. John Lennon, Bob Dylan, etc. I think all of the truly great songwriters exhibit talent as well as skill. So if you want to be great, develop what you have of each.
 
Nicole_Rose said:
a singer/songwriter/musician who has nothing but skill can be as bad off as a purely talented individual.
Click to expand...

Agreed... I completely see your perspective on that. Obviously having both is really what makes it happen. For an analogy for those to help understand in the easiest possible way, i see skill is more or less, the sand paper to a piece of wood. The wood is the talent, the sand paper is the skill. It perfects the wood, crafts it, smooths out the corners, shapes the edges to perfection (or closest :) ). Having just one or the other is pointless as only so much can be achieved.

Indeed, some good points have been raised here!
 
just like one person was sayin talent unless you pursue it doenst really do any good..practicing and practicing to hone a "skill" is what makes goos lyricists song writers..example..i rap and i showed some of my raps to my friend...he graduated outta highschool and about 2 years later with barely talkin to him i show him my recent stuff and hes like thats really dope thats way better then ya other shit, you sound better on the microphone and more comfortable...its all practice..practice can only make you better..and most of the ppl that are "singers" (mainstream) dont write there lyrics ppl in the back ("ghost writers") do em for the "singers" so if your wondering howd they do that genius bar..they prolly didnt..lol
-1-
C jOker
just my 2 cents
 
to me its being unique, while still retaining a sense of what lyrics should be.
My example is mike skinner (the streets) on original pirate material, you listen to his lyrics and your told a story, and i alwasy think "why didnt i think of that"
 
Consider this a stream of consciousness reply. ie, I'm trying to figure out the answer as I go...

Lyrics, are a method of conveying some sort of message, typically emotional, although often philosophical, political, or some other sort of artistic topic (Note how often art is tied into philosophy, politics, spirituality, etc). So in a sense, the mark of a talented lyricist is the ability to convey such a message in a way that is both accurate, yet vague enough so that the listener can relate the lyrics to their own life experience. For example, some would say that the emotional message in some "emo" music is "I'm hurt," but the message comes across as "Girls don't like me, I'm a whiny bitch." This would be considered poor lyricism. (Disclaimer: I am not talking shit about emo. I like several emo bands. Its just the first example that came to mind. Besides, lets be honest, there's no bad music worse than bad emo).

To tell the truth I think that is a better definition of ability, rather than talent. Ability being the product of talent and dedication to the craft. The craft of lyricism involves studying a few other topics, poetic devices (metaphor, simile, etc) and the art of word sounds (alliteration, assonance, slant rhyme, etc).

In terms of Singing/songwriting, lyricists of ability are best noted by their ability to craft lyrics that support the emotional message of their music, that fit with the melody and mood of their music. The lyricists of the most ability are those that write lyrics that do not draw attention to themselves within the context of their song, but stand strong alone nonetheless.
 
azraelswings said:
Lyrics, are a method of conveying some sort of message, typically emotional, although often philosophical, political, or some other sort of artistic topic (Note how often art is tied into philosophy, politics, spirituality, etc). So in a sense, the mark of a talented lyricist is the ability to convey such a message in a way that is both accurate, yet vague enough so that the listener can relate the lyrics to their own life experience...
Click to expand...

...And all in under five minutes... :cool:

There is a talent to turn a phrase--I know people who can come up with a snappy comeback to ANY comment instantly--That's a talent, a chemical process in the brain that instantaneously conjures a witty remark...But make one of those people sit down and write a lyric...You get a slumgullion of witty remarks, but little substance.

The bulk of my songs are storytelling. The talent lies in the telling, but the skill lies in having that story make any sense in under five minutes...Unless you're into the indie scene, whereby none of that matters anyway... :D

Eric
 
5 minutes???? If I can't get it done in close to 3 minutes, it's back to re-writes :D :D
 
mikeh said:
5 minutes???? If I can't get it done in close to 3 minutes, it's back to re-writes :D :D
Click to expand...

Inna-Gada-Da-Vida...17 minutes! But only about 2 or 3 minutes of actual lyrics...
 
mjr said:
Inna-Gada-Da-Vida...17 minutes! But only about 2 or 3 minutes of actual lyrics...
Click to expand...

You've all made some great points! If I may ask, who are some talented songwriters you can think of?

Here are a few I can think of:

Hank Williams, Kurt Cobain, Metallica (namely Hetfield & Ulrich), Kim Williams, Jenny Yates, Diane Warren, Tony Arata, Me ;) Scott Stapp

That's off the top of my head...I'm sure there are others!
 
Well Doug Ingle (Iron Butterfly) would never be on my list of great lyricists :eek:

There are too many great writers to even know where to start - I mean so many well crafted songs in the 40's, 50's & 60's. As far individual "contemporary" writers, certainly Hank Williams and Willie Nelson come to mind (although some of Willie's vocal phrasing sometimes takes away from the lyrics). I've always liked a lot of Tom Petty's writing. I like Steve Earle. Many of the songs written by the various members of the Eagles are very well crafted. Obviously Lennon/McCartney

There are many very good writers in country/new country (country music has always had great lyrics) - one in particular, Brad Paisley has written some very good lyrics.
 
mikeh said:
Well Doug Ingle (Iron Butterfly) would never be on my list of great lyricists :eek:

There are too many great writers to even know where to start - I mean so many well crafted songs in the 40's, 50's & 60's. As far individual "contemporary" writers, certainly Hank Williams and Willie Nelson come to mind (although some of Willie's vocal phrasing sometimes takes away from the lyrics). I've always liked a lot of Tom Petty's writing. I like Steve Earle. Many of the songs written by the various members of the Eagles are very well crafted. Obviously Lennon/McCartney

There are many very good writers in country/new country (country music has always had great lyrics) - one in particular, Brad Paisley has written some very good lyrics.
Click to expand...

I'll concur with those remarks! You've mentioned great songwriters!
 
Hi,heard the audio not bad.
Lyrics come from a desire to tell a story,sometimes its a message,othertimes they are just a collection of poems.Lyrics that stand out are those that really matter to the multitude,words are powerful and their meanings carry hope.
great insight and real words......Lyrics maketh the song.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top