How can I cut down on bleed with drum mics?

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Crayon Boy

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Just a quick question. When micing drums how can I cut down on bleed through from other drum mics? I'm mainly concerned with the tom mics. Recently recorded a band and the drums sound good, but there's an enourmous amount of cymbal/snare bleed coming through the tom mics. I have learned that when micing toms it's good to pull the mic back about six inches to let the sound develop, but that makes for a lot of bleed. I have been thinking of editing the tom tracks so that they only come on when there's a tom fill... or I've thought of trying to use a gate effect to pull out some of the unwanted sounds. Any other tips, suggestions, or ideas??
 
What kind of mics are you using? Going from cardiod to hyper-cardiod can help. Gating is an option but I personally don't like the sound. Trying to place mics so unwanted elements are as close to the null of the mics pick up pattern as possible. Actually I like the bleed as it's part of the overall sound unless the hi hat is particularly nasty. But that's more of a function of the hat thickness and the drummer who is playing them than mic choice/placement.
 
Editing is the best thing to do, a drummer will not hit the toms and cymbals at the same moment.

The alternative is a good gate with EQ on the trigger side, but the drummer must be a consistant tom hitter.

I record analog and when I have enough time I 'edit' the bleed with the automated board.
 
i dont think some bleed on drums is bad, like other guy said... to me, it sort of adds to the overall fullness of the kit sound and adds a little more space to it. just feels and sounds 'natural', which i like.

also. i've been using the Sennheiser e609 silver for my toms and it sounds very good, and its hypercardiod... and they're like 100 dollars a piece.
 
If you're using the overheads to capture the bulk of your kit sound, while using the close mics (particularly the toms) just to sort of "fill in" or support the overheads, then I wouldn't worry too much about any negative effects due to gating. In fact not gating them will likely present a lot more problems due to possible phase issues -- not to mention how crappy the cymbal bleed is going to sound, as you mention.

If your overheads are positioned well, then you've already got something to "let the sound develop" as you put it. Besides, the added proximity effect due to close-micing the toms will add some extra low-end muscle to help round things out, so I don't see any benefit backing 'em off anyway. It's kind of redundant.

If you use hypercardiod mics, you can get an even beefier sound, and far less bleed at the same time. I would highly highly highly recommend the Audix mics for this purpose. They make some really excellent (and relatively inexpensive) hypercardiods that work well for toms.
 
I use ATM25 hypercardioids for my toms and kick. They work very well and are plentiful on eBay around $80. New (shipped) price is $139 from Zzounds.

The Audix D2 is advertised specifically for toms, and are USA made. Best new price I've seen is $129.
 
I record alot of metal which usually calls for a close mic'd in your face drum sound.
I have found that the best way to gate toms and have them still sound natural is to use an expander/gate. The cymbal bleed or other background noise is reduced to whatever level you set but it is not totally cut out. It seems to help keep the kit meshed together in my opinion.
The behringer composer pro (if you need compression) or the multigate works well in this situation if your low on cash. There are alot more expensive routes for outboard gear but you may be using plugins so i really cant help you there.
 
BTW...
I think alot of people have a bad taste in their mouth left over from the 80's when it comes to gating drums.
Its like you say something about gating your toms and automatically everyone thinks about those horrible cheesy digital drum tom sounds where they have the reverb set like its a cavern and the gate is set to chop it off.
I am not saying that mic placement and pattern won't help, because it will if you spend the time and set them up right. I guess im just saying don't be afraid to experiment or don't overlook gates as a valuable engineering tool. I find them very usefull in my situation and im sure i am not the only one.
 
Gates all the way.. they work great. The Waves C1 gate is perfect... I like a super fast attack, and just enough decay to let the drum die down some. Works like a charm. Set your thresh just where the snare is ALMOST opening the gate, and I mean like 1 db away, and on occasion it just might open it briefly, but thats ok. Cant ask for better, faster. POsition your mics different too, might help a bunch.
 
Use some band aids :p

(Ok ok that wasn't funny... Just had to say it)

Beathoven
 
i like the bleed i get in my drum mics. i find that it helps to fill out the overall sound of the kit. of course, i too subscribe from the "get the majority of your kit's sound from the overheads" school of thought. in most cases, i mic my drums with a pair of 603's (OH's), an RE38 on kick and either a shure 545 (sm57), sm58, senn 835 or SP B1 on snare (depending on the drum and the sound i want), and i usually find that "usable" enough. close mics definitely do fatten up the sound, though.

i would suggest placing your cymbals higher. or having the drummer not hit the bloody things so hard. rule of thumb--hard on the drums, light on the cymbals. and use cymbals that are better suited for studio use (A's or K's) rather than live use (Z's, in terms of zildjians) . try lighter, faster responding cymbals as well, rather than big, clangy ones.

i'm not a big fan of gates (either audio or bill), but they do serve their purpose. maybe i just haven't been able to get em to work right (read: ID10T errors), or my recordings haven't been that suited to benefit from their use. either way, i don't generally use em.


cheers,
wade
 
one thing that helps (and is cheap);

take some paper cups, cut the bottom out and put them over the mic so the cup surounds the mic. cuts down a great deal on side leakage.
 
Actually the bleed isn't a big problem, unless the toms are buzzing and ringing like hell.

Gates can be a big help, but maybe it's best to use them as expander.

A very good drummer is a great help as well.
 
Another trick I've used is to reverse phase on the middle tom mic.

That way, the spill / ring has a cancelling effect against the other drums. Try it - you may like the effect - a little cleaner.
 
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