Home Studio Help needed

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iamsolidsnake

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Hey, I'm about to move, and in this new house my mom ( I'm 18, going college in the fall, off my case =P) has given me the bottom story of the house, and what sold me on being ok with this new house was how she came up with the Idea being a perfect place to turn into a recording studio ( I have a small fledging buisness/company thing, and recording is something I've been doing recently, and not the best at it.)

She's thinking she might help me out up to $2,000 for the studio, so let me tell you what I've been thinking about for the gear, and any help you can give will be great. the idea? Digital studio with a dedicated computer

My first thought for this was a mixer. namely this one

But, another user who I've known for a while who first directed me here noted that if I decide to use something like pro-tools, I'd have to drop big bucks on an a/d box. But, the pro-tools I was thinking of using is probably more along the lines of pro-tools LE, which works with certain computer hardware that allows you to plug a mixer ( certain kinds I'm sure) right into your computer. And I noticed the main output port on the back of the above mixer, and was wondering if there was a plug in like that to the computer, could I just use that? He told me basicly you want a left and right channel for each input, and I want to be able to use at least 7 inputs for drums. So basicly, my question is, is there a recording software where I won't need the a/d box?

My next question is is there anyway to send info from the computer to the mixer? That particular mixer has no memory, and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to get recording quality when I can't adjust levels in real time post-recording.

If you know of any better comparable mixers around that price range you'd reccommend that could help solve my problems, that would be great.

And I willingly admit I'm completely new to the mixer biz and such, I've done multi-track recordings with a microphone with a special computer mic input track by track, but that was using in-program levels and having the flexibility to move the single tracks where ever needed.

If you want to check out what I've done, my company's/buisness's myspace is www.myspace.com/138designs

My first forray into tracking singular instruments is No Comply's Caffeine 16 demo, a local band I manage and book/ promote.

Also if you want, enjoy the radio show. Thanks!

Also, I'm not particularly thrilled about using pro-tools, and another program reccomendation would be great. I've only ever used acoustica, and that's pretty much it, neglecting drum looping programs. And said programs did not work so well for me because of my inexperience.
 
If you really want to set up a pc based system then skip the idea of a mixer for now. It's really kind of useless in your situation. If you go with pro tools le you'll already have 4 mic pre's built in. If you spend another couple hundred then you could get the same pre's in that board in a single rackspace adat unit giving you 12 tracks to record at once. I say skip the mixer due to the cost versus need. You don't NEED one, I've been recording bands for a couple years and have never needed a mixer. The one on pro tools seems to work fine. Oh and if you get the regular 002 you'd have a small mixer from the get go. Otherwise 002r would be the economical way to go.
 
I actually diasgree with skipping a mixer. Though my post recording mixing happens in cubase, my console provides me with the singal routing I need for real time [zero latency] routing of the input from my mics to headphone outs, monitors, and my A/D converter. Granted I got my start with a 24 track reel to reel and mostly treat my DAW as a tape deck until its time to mixdown, but unless protools has some magic where you can direct monitor tracks you're recording to with zero latency, I don't know any other way to accomplish it.

There are lots of programs that do what protools does that are not protools. Some of them are very cheap or even free and might be a good introduction to DAW recording for you. I used protools in the studio in college [ah... the control 24] but prefer Cubase because it allows me to use whatever A/D input device I want, and I can't afford nuendo (dedicated submix outs and surround mixing would be HOT!).

That desk you see there, besides being a Behringer, is an inline mixer, meaning you wouldn't need a computer at all to record, punch in, multitrack, or mixdown because it has an inline monitor section and dedicated tape outs. All you would need is a hard disk recorder, a reel to reel, ADAT or some other form of multichannel recorder. Oh, and a whole lot of cables! I used to use a 24 track Tascam very similar [in fact Behringer appears to have taken the design from that old thing] and it was great being able to choose the tape machine, the ADAT's, or protools as my recording medium just by switching out the cables in the patchbay.

That being said, the project window in ProTools, Cubase ect. makes finding recorded parts, replacing them,punching in, and splicing and lopping vastly easier. Also nondestructive editing and no track limit and 'in the box routing' are modern conveniences that I'm a big fan of.

I'm a little confused, and almost convinced you might not be completely familiar with DAW recording, given your desire (assuming I understand) to multitrack record to computer without an A/D converter [if I'm wrong I sinerely apologize, you might be able to skip the rest of this paragraph and not miss a thing]. What you want for a studio is descreet individual inputs for each channel so you can record each one to a separate track in the software, allowing you to edit the volumes and add plugins later, which are the digital equivalent to rack mounted effects and processors. Individual channels for each mic/input requires as many mic's, mic pre's, and inputs on your A/D converter as you want to run at one time. So lets say 7 drum mics, 2 guitars with one mic each, a DI and/or mic on the bass, and one for the singer. We need 12 inputs if we want to record all of them at once . Usualy this is the prefered method of recording if it's availible. After that you route the output of the software out of the outputs of the D/A converter back to the mixer, route that along with the singal from the original mics to your monitors and headphone mix for the artist, and make your overdubs and double trackings ect. Thats why I think a mixer is necessary even in a DAW environment.

If you record stereo out from your board into a soundcard, there will be no ability to make adjustments to the tracks level and EQ on an individual instrument basis later, and you should not waste so much money on a board that has in-line monitoring with dedicated tape outs.

I agree with jonnyc, the 002 and protools would probably be a good start. A few mic pre's, some signal routing, software bundled, and the faders work as a control surface for the software, which is something a board the size of that Behringer isn't going to do for you until your budget becomes something you probably haven't even imagined yet.
 
i don't know if 2000 is gonna cut it dude.

do you already have some equiptment ie Drums, mics?

i'd get the 002rack, a kick mic, overhead condensors, and an sm57 and call it done, on your budget, plus mic stands, good cables, and a desk (?). i have a cool little desk from musicians friend, its a modular desk with a rack on one side, for only $150. you can go line in on the guitars/bass, and maybe a low-priced LDC for vocals. if you get stuff used, you'll have some more money to work with too. theres no problem with used gear if its working perfect.

i'd get the 57 and kick mic used for sure, i got a d112 for 130, in perfect conditon, and 2 57's for 125ish, on ebay.

also, this is assuming you have a computer to work with already. you might want a ram upgrade, and a second or external HD.

have fun and welcome to The Best Recording Forum on the web.
 
Thanks fo all the help, and since I've read Johnnyc's post, I've been looking and thinking, and today I stumbled across some cool little digital standalone stations with internal HD... So I've got a new offering for approval, both of which seem promising, seeing as with these, a new computer will be affordable and not as important as with a mixing board of that size, but I also have questions/ problems with a few things.... I will be showing you the packages, any help comments and concerns are appreciated.

Korg all in one package

Tascam all in one package


Only problem with the tascam is it only has 4 xlr inputs, then 4 1/4" jack.... I plan to use a lot of mics for drums, at least 6-8, depending.


Also, in the Korg's description it says 16 track recording, an says 12 analog inputs... excuse my lack of education, but are hi-impedance mics with XLR also analog? Like I said, I'm brand new to this, and my terminology is not even down. I know analog and digital are two things, digital having to do with digital, IE computers and junk, and analog... isn't having o do with computers and stuff.


Thanks again for all the input, and for the welcome!
 
Marketing terminology is purposefully misleading these days, but I think it's safe to assume that 'analog input' is going to refer to a 1/4 or an XLR input. Things that would not fall under analog are MIDI, ADAT Lightpipe, USB, and SPDIF, which are digital inputs.

My only concern regarding fully contained systems is how easily you can upgrade later. For instance, Digidesign and Motu I know, have set up thier product lines so that if you buy a device with only 8 inputs now, all you need to do to get more inputs is buy another unit and if you have the mic pre's or channels on your mixer, you now have the inputs and the two rackmounted devices will work together as one big A/D converter.

Really if you're in a hurry to get your feet wet, I wouldn't at all sugest you avoid those standalones, I know some home recordists that put them to good use, but I would caution you to do some more research. There are a near infinite number of ways you can get sounds mixed down to a media where you can listen to it these days using digital and analog combinations and if you aren't careful you might go setting up a studio built around one architechture only to find you want to use a different system instead.

Rather than try and show you all of them, I'm going to post some links to some manufacturers of recording tools today and encourage anyone and everyone to post more if you think I didn't post the right ones or enough of them or you just have another option to add, I'm certain im not familiar with even close to everything out there, but some of these might give you an idea how other people are recording digitaly today.

motu - http://www.motu.com/
digidesign - http://www.digidesign.com/
presonus - http://www.presonus.com/
steinberg - http://www.steinberg.net/24_1.html
cakewalk - http://www.cakewalk.com/
reaper(free, but i am yet to use it) - http://www.cockos.com/reaper/
alesis - http://www.alesis.com/

and especially even if you don't feel like looking at any of those, try reading this. http://www.tweakheadz.com/rigs.htm

Sorry it's so much to read, I spent 4 years in college studying recording arts, a lot of it reading about things like this and one of the most important things I learned, was 4 years wasn't going to be enough time. I'll be learning more about this stuff every day for the rest of my life. I'm pretty excited by that idea.

Hope at least some of this helped.
 
thank you for the reading material, I am sure it will be a big help, and thank you for clearing up my analog/digital confusion, I was just worried I wouldn't be able to use 8+ xlr's at once with the Korg..... which is what I am kinda leaning towards, but the 24 track is appealing because while I know the more the better, 24 is less I can mess up. Plus there's the bit about me being a clash nerd and being able to sing " a 24-track!" with Mick on Safe European home, but of course, I won't let that fog my quest for a good set up. =P

As for digi, the only thing s the digi 002 is out of my budget, and that's just for the 8-track board and computer software, where as the Korg and Tascam have packages where it already comes with monitors and breaks me into my big thing of having a lot of MXL's at the ready.
 
Why all the confussion.

It don't really matter what anyone says, The answer is very simple, N-Track, N-Track, N-Track. I have been recording for 30 years and have use them all, from Q-base to cakewalk, 4track, 8track, 16track, 32track and every other recording program in-between. After discovering N-Track I have not used anouther DAW Program. N-Track has everything you will ever need and the sound quality is much better than any other program that ive used. I really apoligize to all the others but I have been doing this for to long, Ive heard them all and tried them all, nothing beats N-Track
PS I use 2 $60.00 mic's Un-known Brand
I also connect everything to a mixer (exept Bass and Drums, Use direct for them).
DONT FORGET THE MIXER!!!

Dan
Boomers Digital Recording & Karaoke Studio.
 
hi boomers, i see you are new here.

on this forum, we try to be open minded, and give advice.

N-track might be your thing, but he was asking about what kind of hardware to get, to get the sound INTO the computer.

there is no best, and if you ramble about the bests, you will get neg rep power. i wont give you one now because you are new here.

generally, recording with a mixer, isnt anything super. you mix all the tracks into two stereo tracks and then what? sure that works great if you are an expert/professional engineer. its very difficult to edit when its all bounced into two tracks, and we are mostly amateurs, and a few pro's here.
 
Snake,

You haven't listed what gear you have now. I hope it's quite a bit because if you don't, $2K isn't going to get you anywhere near where you're expecting to be.

A big part of the problem is your desire to "use 7 inputs for drums". Let's look at that alone for a second:

$2000 divided by 7 gives you $285 per channel to work with just for drums alone. And that price would have to include the microphone, cables, mic stand and preamp or channel strip. Considering cable and mic stand alone can take a good $85 of that, that leaves you with $200/channel for mic and preamp/channel strip. That's cutting it quite thin, and that's only considering drums. Even if you cut your drum needs to a minimal 3-mic setup, that would still only give you 4 extra channels for vocals, guitars, bass and keys, and would still only give you $200/channel to work with.

And we haven't even gotten to the interface and recording end of it yet.

So it really comes down to what gear you already have to leverage against that. In order to make a proper suggestion on which way to go, one would have to know what you already have to work with. You mentioned something about "having a lot of MXL's at the ready". Could you explain that a bit better? Along with what you may already have in the way of computer gear, monitoring chain, cabling, or other hardware or software.

Also to be considred; how much, if any, remodeling of the basement has to be considered in that budget as well? Is the basement already finished? Will you require any new electrical, sound treatment (will you mom want it soundproofed, for example?) or anything else like that?

Don;t get me wrong, $2K can take you a long way if you budget it right. But you really need to budget it right; it's really easy to spend two grand and wind up not getting a good enough return on that investment.

So, what do you have now and what will you need to spend money on other than a mixer or recording software? Let's take it from there.

G.
 
noah, your colleague in coincidence.

First off i really have to say -- listen to southsideglen. he really has some great things to say. if you end up loving recording and really begin to fall into the thick of it search around this site for tutorials and stuff.

but to get to my points, im sure its been mentioned by plenty, but aside from getting as many tracks as possible for as many mics to covery everything you wish to get sound of wont necessarily get you anywhere at all. as soon as you push hear the hiss of 10 microphones in that room now you have the task of eliminating that from your song.

reasearch and experiment with mic placement. I swear this is one of the most important things i started scrutinizing when i began to read into recording.

oh no
i have to go to bed
 
OK , Skippy....."it doesnt matter what anyone says" ====Ive found NTrack to be a POS program compared to Sequoia, WL, Cubase, Samplitude....it is a" consumer" program, and it is very evident from the moment you open it....
"sound quality is better than them all" :rolleyes:

maybe for you these things ring true, but you cannot make absolute statements...after all, if NTRACK were viable as a professional option, there would be a HELL of a lot more studios using it rather than SAW, SADIE, SEQUOIA, PYRAMIX, PT, Etc....it may be decent as a home recording program, but it is a joke compared to the upper tier programs. you cannot even compare them......

so you are a professional studio, and have only :two mics, unknown brand"... :rolleyes:



Boomersrec said:
It don't really matter what anyone says, The answer is very simple, N-Track, N-Track, N-Track. I have been recording for 30 years and have use them all, from Q-base to cakewalk, 4track, 8track, 16track, 32track and every other recording program in-between. After discovering N-Track I have not used anouther DAW Program. N-Track has everything you will ever need and the sound quality is much better than any other program that ive used. I really apoligize to all the others but I have been doing this for to long, Ive heard them all and tried them all, nothing beats N-Track
PS I use 2 $60.00 mic's Un-known Brand
I also connect everything to a mixer (exept Bass and Drums, Use direct for them).
DONT FORGET THE MIXER!!!

Dan
Boomers Digital Recording & Karaoke Studio.
Click to expand...
 
BOOMERS DIGITAL RECORDING and KARAOKE STUDIO

WTF is "CD ENHANCEMENT"?? :rolleyes:

Live Recordings $50 per song (Enhancement incl)
CD Enhancement $39 (per CD)
Instrumental add-in $89 per song
Musical Add-in (call for price)
Sound Effects $42 (per song)
Karaoke $37 (per 6 recorded songs & CD)
& More
We'll beat anyones recording price. Hell, with a mixer, "two mics, unknown brand, 60.00, and N-Track, I would expect you to be cheap!...


Call Daniel Lundquist
(503) 622-1769 or (503) 309-4873
(Serving the Portland, OR area)


so what monitors do you have??what outboard gear??is your room acoustically treated??power conditioners??what is your complete gear list?
 
Thank you SouthSIDE Glen, but I've already thought about all of that, and the set up of the garage is going to be something else, not included in the 2,000 for the studio.... and I don't know if you looked at my other post, but I've kinda now moved onto the digital workstations, which are pretty much starter kits, they come with monitors, mics, stands, cables, and I believe both have computer connectibility, although you can record and print cd's straight from the unit.

Would the A/D channels even still be needed? I assumed ( might have been a mistake) that a standalone digital workstation in a package made to be set up right away, a/d boxes aren't even mentioned in gear needed, and these places would love to sell me more gear, I'm sure.
 
nevome said:
I actually diasgree with skipping a mixer. Though my post recording mixing happens in cubase, my console provides me with the singal routing I need for real time [zero latency] routing of the input from my mics to headphone outs, monitors, and my A/D converter
Click to expand...
And I disagree with you disagreeing with skipping the mixer, specially when the budget is tight and it could be spent better on better quality equipment than that POS.

Also, about the zero latency monitoring... any modern audio interface should have zero latency monitoring facilities. If it doesn't, skip it, it's not worth a dime.

Oh, and you DO have group submixes and surround mixing in Cubase SX ;)

As for ProTools... hmmm... I am kind of split on this, just because you do get locked into specific hardware. With PT LE specially, you could probably do better with Cubase or Sonar, than PT LE and you can pick and choose your interface.

So, skip the mixer, decide if you're really hell-bent on PT, and if not, research some of the better quality audio interfaces out there. Go mixerless for now, and then down the line you'd be able to better decide whether you need one or not.
 
ha...this thread is starting to get out of hand...

First piece of advice:
-DON'T listen to N-track guy
-DON'T buy a mixer...It will eat your budget for breakfast... ll you need is an interface (probably something small with ADAT connections, so you can get a cheap 8 channels of ADAT pre's)
-DO listen and search for any post by Southside Glen (this guy it seems has more time in the day than god to answer any & every question, in a detailed and timely manner...THANKS SOUTHSIDE!!!!

let the battle continue...

N-TRACK sucks the puss from your momma's taint!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
HELLOOOOOOOOOOO..... Sorry to " yell", but no one's commented at all on the digital stations I posted up earlier.... that's what the plan has changed to after the realization that a Pro-tools/comp based program was way out of my budget.


People kinda got side tracked and only read my first post then got on to the entire N-track thing...

So if you've got anything about those products, that'd be awesome...
 
heres a little set up for arund $2,000.........just something to check out.

Interface..Interface

$500

and then for the extra 4 inputs you could grab a couple of DMP3's used for around $300 for two. Or any 2 channel pre amps, there are several options

a kick mic for around $130
large condenser around $200
3 sm57 used about $200
pair of small condensers $200 or so used
monitors you could grab a decent pair off ebay or on this forum for about $300.

all the rest for cables, stands, headphones etc.

this of course is jsut off the top of my head. Most of the prices are used and could take some searching for but you could grab a very usuable set up for $2,000 if you look hard enough. I might be forgetting a few things so I'm sure someone will point things out. This is assuming you have a nice computer and software also, but you can grab cheap software.

As far as the all in one package I wouls steer away from that. You can get a few better peices buying used and such and probably wouldn't have to upgrade as soon. Anyway this is jsut a thought might not be too much help but jsut another option.



Chris
 
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