Here's One For The Tone Conscious- (Amp Content)

[MusicallyMrM]

Remember now............Line 6 says that these amps are *not* solid state. And I quote:

" 1. The Line 6 modeling process is a patented, 100% digital software-based technology exclusive to Line 6.
2. Line 6 Modeling is not sampling, nor is it solid state; no special guitar, pickup or cabling is needed"

.....from the Spider Pilot's Handbook

I dunno about all that but as far as non-tube Amps go, none sound as good as any of the Line 6 products.

Check Out The Music @ www.soundclick.com/bands/2/musicallymrmmusic.htm

 

[krimson]

Remember now............Line 6 says that these amps are *not* solid state. And I quote:

" 1. The Line 6 modeling process is a patented, 100% digital software-based technology exclusive to Line 6.
2. Line 6 Modeling is not sampling, nor is it solid state; no special guitar, pickup or cabling is needed"

.....from the Spider Pilot's Handbook

I dunno about all that but as far as non-tube Amps go, none sound as good as any of the Line 6 products.

Check Out The Music @ www.soundclick.com/bands/2/musicallymrmmusic.htm

Well still there are no tubes in it at all so what is the sound going through? Chips/processors. And what do they comprise of? Transistors, and lots of them too. So therfor the Line 6 amp are transistor amplifiers. And they sure sound like it too.

 

[MusicallyMrM]

Hey Krimson, I'm not saying that I don't agree with you but you got to admit there are a whole lot worse sounding "solid state" amps. (Most Peaveys come to mind-just my oppinion I guess) I've been playing for a very long time and I think I own one of the best sounding Tube Amps currently available (outside of an out-of-my-price range Dumble)-that's a Carr Rambler. I'm telling you that the Line 6 holds it's own. It truly comes very close to the models programmed in it and to tell you the truth, why is everyone so dead set on this "exactness" issue when a truly good usable sound is all that is required? And since most of that sound should come from your fingers, the amp should be secondary. I am drifting from the point...........I didn't understand Line 6's explanation of the process unless you they are speaking of the algorithm used to create the models. The hardware is definitely soild state but damned good solid state to my ears.

 

[krimson]

Hey Krimson, I'm not saying that I don't agree with you but you got to admit there are a whole lot worse sounding "solid state" amps. (Most Peaveys come to mind-just my oppinion I guess) I've been playing for a very long time and I think I own one of the best sounding Tube Amps currently available (outside of an out-of-my-price range Dumble)-that's a Carr Rambler. I'm telling you that the Line 6 holds it's own. It truly comes very close to the models programmed in it and to tell you the truth, why is everyone so dead set on this "exactness" issue when a truly good usable sound is all that is required? And since most of that sound should come from your fingers, the amp should be secondary. I am drifting from the point...........I didn't understand Line 6's explanation of the process unless you they are speaking of the algorithm used to create the models. The hardware is definitely soild state but damned good solid state to my ears.

Hey MusicallyMrM, your Carr is indeed a very nice amp. I'm surprised that you think that a Line 6 is pretty good when owning the Carr but such is life. I own a '78 50 watt Hiwatt and a '71 Traynor Bass Master(that I modded to sound very killer I might add), and a early 70's Pine, plus I build my own amps(point to point) and could never even think of owning or even listen to a Line 6 or any solid state amp for that matter, they just sound so cold and lifeless in comparison, the moddeling or what ever they like to call it does not even come close to me at all. There are no dynamics in the amp for when you say turn your guitar volume down, it does not react the same way at all. But that's my 2 cents anyway

 

[shredfit]

I must agree the line 6 stuff can be pretty convincing... Is it exact? Heck no... Is it useable.... hell yes.

One must also consider that tube amp modeling is still basically in it's infancy... Will tube amp modeling improve? I think so...

I'm also a fan of tube amps and own a few of my own... Marshall/Fender etc... but one also must consider the availablity of GOOD quality tubes.... Most of us would never think of playing a Chinese guitar(meagar quality/craftmanship)... but we MUST "in many cases" use Chinese made tubes... (ie a tube amp using Sovtech tubes sounds like crap to me...)

Are these foreign companies gonna make tubes forever? Propably not... In 20 years may we tube amp owners own some really nice boat anchors? It's possible.

I think modeling is really here to stay... like it or not...

Shred

 

[krimson]

I must agree the line 6 stuff can be pretty convincing... Is it exact? Heck no... Is it useable.... hell yes.

One must also consider that tube amp modeling is still basically in it's infancy... Will tube amp modeling improve? I think so...

I'm also a fan of tube amps and own a few of my own... Marshall/Fender etc... but one also must consider the availablity of GOOD quality tubes.... Most of us would never think of playing a Chinese guitar(meagar quality/craftmanship)... but we MUST "in many cases" use Chinese made tubes... (ie a tube amp using Sovtech tubes sounds like crap to me...)

Are these foreign companies gonna make tubes forever? Propably not... In 20 years may we tube amp owners own some really nice boat anchors? It's possible.

I think modeling is really here to stay... like it or not...

Shred

There are still plenty of good tubes, I agree that the Sovtek are not that great some better than others but there is Svetlanta who make excellent tubes still, and EH tubes are fantastic as well. These are not Chinese tubes but are Russian. Yes there will be tubes being made for a long, long time. Why? Because there is a demand for them. Guitar amps are not the only product out there that use tubes. Believe me, that tubes will still be produced long after we are around so you will have no worry. Besides I would take a tube amp with crappy tubes in it over a solid state amp any day. Yes the moddeling technology will get better but it also takes out the fun of modding your amp's tone to tailor it for you(well at least I do it), try that with a line 6. Also if a Line 6 amp has problems, good luck trying to repair it yourself, let alone getting parts for it which are easily attainable for a tube amp. Just a thought for all of you.

 

[juststartingout]

I must agree the line 6 stuff can be pretty convincing... Is it exact? Heck no... Is it useable.... hell yes.

Well said.

I am a tube addict, a Marshall TSL100, Mesa tri-rect and a Fender Blues Deville. But I also have a POD. I like playing with it at home. I run it into my acoustic amp downstairs, but I won't take it out gigging. Although it would be a lot lighter. It's just another tool, another type of sound, but not my Marshall or my Mesa. If you buy it, buy it for what it's worth, use it and have fun with it.

 

[krimson]

Well said.

I am a tube addict, a Marshall TSL100, Mesa tri-rect and a Fender Blues Deville. But I also have a POD. I like playing with it at home. I run it into my acoustic amp downstairs, but I won't take it out gigging. Although it would be a lot lighter. It's just another tool, another type of sound, but not my Marshall or my Mesa. If you buy it, buy it for what it's worth, use it and have fun with it.

No offense, but if you opened up all of those amps that you mentioned you will see that there are transistors in them as well, they are not true tube amps. But I know what you are saying about using something for what is is worth.

 

[shredfit]

Krimson

If you open up a Marshall you will also find a solid state recifier(yup! it's transistor).... so in your line of thinking a Marshall tube amp is NOT a real tube amp... but without the solid state rectifier the Marshall will sound like a Fender Bassman. I Believe Bogner's also have a solid state rectifier... so they MUST not be true tube amps either...

What is also interesting is many tube manufacturers sub contract tube manufacture from either Chinese, Russian, or Czech. plants (the Russian one's not being much better, Czech stuff being a little better.) Then just testing them and offering better quality control... Does that Make the tubes better? No IMO!

My point is why do you think there are all these guys (myself included) running around lookin' for old "somethimes used" General Electric Military grade 6L6's, 12AX7's, KT77's, EL34's?

It's basically because even used General Electric tube kick the crap out of any Russina/Chinese/Czech tube out there... and that IS a fact.

With improved modeling technology modifying your modeling amp may be as simple as getting a new chip... or even updating software... still plenty to tinker with for those who love that...

Shred

 

[krimson]

Krimson

If you open up a Marshall you will also find a solid state recifier(yup! it's transistor).... so in your line of thinking a Marshall tube amp is NOT a real tube amp... but without the solid state rectifier the Marshall will sound like a Fender Bassman. I Believe Bogner's also have a solid state rectifier... so they MUST not be true tube amps either...

What is also interesting is many tube manufacturers sub contract tube manufacture from either Chinese, Russian, or Czech. plants (the Russian one's not being much better, Czech stuff being a little better.) Then just testing them and offering better quality control... Does that Make the tubes better? No IMO!

My point is why do you think there are all these guys (myself included) running around lookin' for old "somethimes used" General Electric Military grade 6L6's, 12AX7's, KT77's, EL34's?

It's basically because even used General Electric tube kick the crap out of any Russina/Chinese/Czech tube out there... and that IS a fact.

With improved modeling technology modifying your modeling amp may be as simple as getting a new chip... or even updating software... still plenty to tinker with for those who love that...

Shred

Shredfit,

Well I do know that the Marshalls have a solid state rectifier in them, they are not transistors mind you but just some diodes. I'm not going to doubt your electrical knowledge since I don't know you but if you carefully look in those Marshalls that have a solid state rectifier you will see that the signal does not go through the rectifier at all. I guess I should have put it in my earlier post that what I meant was the signal chain, but I only assumed that everyone would know that (I was wrong). So therfor the signal chain in those old Marshalls are definatly a true tube amp still as apposed to the Line 6, or even the Marshall TSL100 that was mentiond earlier in this thread which are not because the signal is going through transistors. So still in my line of thinking a tube amp with a soid state rectifier is still a true tube amp!

As for tubes there are only something like 3 factories making tubes right now. I think what you are referring to is someone like Groove tubes and Mesa Boogie, etc. buy tubes and put their name on them, that is true. What they really are depends and could change without knowing. I myself have NOS tubes including GE military grade, Mullards, etc. But I also own newly made tubes by Svetlanta and Electro Harmonics. In my listening tests they compare very well, try them for yourself.

In any case like I wrote earlier, I would still rather have a true tube amp with crappy Sovtek's over a transistor amp any day. You can always bias the Sovtek tubes really hot (mind you will go through tubes much faster) and still get a very good tone. And tone is what it is all about.

 

[Scottgman]

No offense, but if you opened up all of those amps that you mentioned you will see that there are transistors in them as well, they are not true tube amps. But I know what you are saying about using something for what is is worth.

I'm no expert on anything electronic but most people seem to think of a "true" tube amp as an amp with BOTH pre-amp tubes and power tubes. There has been some confusion since the introduction of the hybrid amps which cleverly advertise themselves as "tube amps" because they have a couple of 12ax7 in them but really have a solid-state power section.

I'm confused by your statement. Are you talking about those hybrid amps? Or are you talking about amps that, by my definition (pre AND power tubes), are considered a "true" tube amp but have a SS rectifier in them?

 

[krimson]

I'm no expert on anything electronic but most people seem to think of a "true" tube amp as an amp with BOTH pre-amp tubes and power tubes. There has been some confusion since the introduction of the hybrid amps which cleverly advertise themselves as "tube amps" because they have a couple of 12ax7 in them but really have a solid-state power section.

I'm confused by your statement. Are you talking about those hybrid amps? Or are you talking about amps that, by my definition (pre AND power tubes), are considered a "true" tube amp but have a SS rectifier in them?

Scottgman,

Yes, a true tube amp is an amp with both preamp and power amp tubes. The hybrid amps that "market" themselves are strctly that, a marketing ploy to make people think that they have a tube amp when they probably only have a solid state amp with 1 preamp tube in it (with a starved plate voltage therfore makeing it pretty much useless in the circuit). The solid state rectifier is for turning AC power into DC power to make a long story short. The guitar signal does not have anything to do with this at all. Now in the larger powered amps the difference between a tube recitfier and a solid state rectifier will make some difference to the sound when cranked up only because of how the power will affect the output of the output tubes. A solid state rectifier will change nothing but provide stable power and a tube rectifier depending on the type, etc. could introduce a sag which will change in how the output tubes and ouput transformer respond.

A hybrid amp is either a tube preamp with soid state power amp OR a solid state preamp with a tube power amp(which I would prefer if I only had the choice of these two). I don't think I have ever seen a hybrid amp with a tube rectifier in it. They generally all have solid state rectifiers in them.

Does this help you out any?

 

[juststartingout]

I believe that the TSL 100, tripple rectifier and the Blues Deville all have tube pre and tube amp. I do know that Mesa provides a switch to use a tube rectifier or a solid state rectifier.

My question is, should there be a third catagory called digital. It differs from solid state in the fact that the user can reprogram the hardware, where solid state are discrete components that cannot be change easily.

 

[krimson]

I believe that the TSL 100, tripple rectifier and the Blues Deville all have tube pre and tube amp. I do know that Mesa provides a switch to use a tube rectifier or a solid state rectifier.

My question is, should there be a third catagory called digital. It differs from solid state in the fact that the user can reprogram the hardware, where solid state are discrete components that cannot be change easily.

Yes they do have tubes in the preamp and power amp. Look at the schematic here for the marshall jcm200 and you will see lots of transistors in the circuit:
http://www.marshallschematics.com/

Compare this to something like this:
http://www1.korksoft.com/~schem/fenderamps/bassman_5f6_schem.pdf

And you will see no transistors at all.

Should there be a catagory called digital? Yes there already is which is what amps like the line 6, Johnson mellinium, etc. are