heres my problem

  • Thread starter Thread starter jugalo180
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jugalo180

jugalo180

www.moneyistherecipe.com
i have been gathering a lot of information from this board, which is great. i have an at 4050, mackie 1202, mackie hr824's, and a lynx one 24bit sound card which is good. my recordings sound like shyaat, which is bad. okay i'm recording only vocals through the at
4050 through the 1202 mixer, into the soundcard. the music is saved instrument by instrument as a wave file without clipping in the software meter.

i export each wave(instrument) into vegas video. let's say i have 8 tracks of individual instruments. i record my vocals through the 4050 on to the 1202 through the lynx into vegas video. once all the vocals are recorded i then try and add my reverbs, pans, volume changes, delays, eq subtractions and compressions to the individual tracks as needed. i still can't seem to get the mix to sit right.

i've been to a few home studios and watched the humble home engineer push a few buttons and fiddle with a few knobs to get a neat looking wave. they all pull the wave up in whatever software to make sure it doesn't have these untidy spikes in them. all they do is record the same as i do, as far as i can see. they take my prerecorded music, which is a wave file, download it from disk. record my vocals and wham. no proximity effect, no instrument having any strong peaks at different times in the song. everything is at the same level. it sounds good tracked without any kind of seperation. i could just imagine how it would sound if they would have tweaked it track by track.

i'm working too hard to get this shyaat sound and they just sit there with there equipment pre set to render some okay stuff. are they just compressing everything as it is being recorded to achieve this? they use software gear just like me as far as i know. they may have one or two pieces of hardware on thier desk. i don't want to ask them because everyone is pretty secretive around here about their techniques, for fear of local competion in the home studio market. i'm just a hobbiest trying to save myself money by engineering my own music. can someone please give me some good techninques step by step to recording.
 
I am just going to go out on a limb, and say that the others that you have watched are just familiar with what they are doing, know what probably will work, and therefore are able to work fairly quickly...or what appears to be quick.

However, I'd ask the person... I mean...how "secretive" is home recording afterall? really...

as far as guessing what they are doing.... there are too many choices as what is happening to waste your time trying to guess what they are actually doing. Patience and a little more "trial and error", and you'll "be there" too... honest!!

Ask 'em man, ask. If you like what they are doing... hey... or offer up a 20 spot... Cash usually speaks well for some 'quickie' lessons.
 
If you can't get a decent mix going without adding anything to your freshly recorded tracks, you need to work on your tracking skills.

Trying to make every instrument sound huge on it's own is a recipe for a cloudy mix. Just try to capture the sound of the instruments as closely as you can, then put up a rough mix. Try to balance it with volume adjustments alone. If something stands out (in a bad way) decide why it doesn't fit before reaching for a plug-in. Maybe it needs some tweaking.

Or maybe it shouldn't be there at all. ;)
 
I'm with mixmkr & M.Brane here. You should know why you put a track (in a mixing terms) here and there. Some times it takes several thin tracks to build one huge mixed out... Use Spectrum analyzer to analyze each tracks freq. range, and avoid using ANY plugins until you're sure it's necesary. They don't help much if you don't know what's the idea.
;)
 
Compression, if properly applied may help a lot, but it'll take some time to get the feeling of how and when to apply... The compression may equal out a lot of these peaks, but you can very easily kill the dynamics of your music totally. Too many guys use very fast attack settings always. Turn the attack a little higher and you'll have a much livelier sound. Once you've really understood compression, you may even try to tweak single tracks with multiband compression, but that is much more difficult...

The thing is, you'll need LOADS of practice and know-how. If you do this as a hobby like me, that takes loads of time...

Don't make the mistake to listen to the tracks alone while you're adding EQ, FX and whatsoever... You'll end up in these single tracks. Listen to the rough-mix (just volumes settings) and start changing from that. A rouggh mix may be build up drums-bass-voice-pads/rhythm-fillings or any other way you like. Just play with volume settings only. If you achieved something that gives you an impression of the song then tweak (EQ,panning, compression, gating, fx a.s.o. - you'll probably have to readjust the volume settings, too)). You may listen to single tracks (for surgical reasons), but remember to judge the mix always...


aXel
 
thanks

i appreciate everyone shedding a little light on the subject. i will take everything in consideration. the rough mix suggestion is a good idea. that is where one of my problems lay.
 
By jugalo:
"...recording only vocals through the at
4050 through the 1202 mixer, into the soundcard."
Click to expand...
What software captures the wav file?

By jugalo:
"...i export each wave(instrument) into vegas video."
Click to expand...
Vegas Video? I'm not familiar with that s/w? Why a video s/w for an audio project?
My guess is something could be happening to the wav file during the export/import process.

By M.Brane:
"If you can't get a decent mix going without adding anything to your freshly recorded tracks, you need to work on your tracking skills."
Click to expand...
Ditto

By M.Brane:
"...If something stands out (in a bad way) decide why it doesn't fit before reaching for a plug-in..."
Click to expand...
What he said.
:p
 
Hey Michael - Vegas Video is just Vegas Audio, with lots more video capability. Still, it's basically Sound Forge's answer to Nuendo, Sonar, etc - Don't know how their summing algorithm is, haven't heard it, but importing tracks shouldn't change anything... Steve
 
okay

i've sat down and took some time to actually think over what i'm doing. when i export from fruity loops, i render track by track at maximum volume. maybe the wave is rendered with clipping distortion? i assumed since it wasn't a live recording which would have actually recorded the clipping i can just adjust the volume in vegas. am i wrong?

when i'm in the vocal booth i have a feeling that i'm recording my vocals with clipping, i'm going to lower the master volume on the mackie 1202 next time to cancel the distortion. am i right?

the individual track volumes in vegas are, by default set above 0db on start up, so when i reduce clipping, not paying attention to the individual track volumes, i just reduce the volume slider on the master mixer. am i wrong?

if i don't adjust the mixer i try to compress it and all i get is this weak song with a lot of air. even if it's a compressed instrumental from a cd. where does this air come from if it's not recorded live? am i stupid? just kidding don't answer that

in all seriousness, i'm thinking if i track everything without any clipping, add compression to bring the dynamics down a bit,and then add a limiter squish all those untidy spikes i should then be cooking with butter. but where do i want the mix to sit? on sound forge the scale goes from inf to 0db. should the mix sit in -6db?

is trying to mimic the dynamics of a wave that has been mastered a no win situation, due to the fact that mastering gear was used to shape the wave on top of mixing gear, and i'm only mixing? for example i know that i'm lost but this is the best way that i can explaine myself.
i take an accapella wave from a commercial cd, it sits at -6db's, i record my own accapella from my home recording booth it sits at -2.5db's, i lower the volume on the wave so it sits at -6db's, it's now matching the proffessionally recorded wave in appearance but it sounds low as hell. should i have used a limiter and or compressor instead of lowering the volume? or am i mixing apples with oranges trying to get my (only) mixed down wave to sit with an already commercially mixed and mastered wave?


any help is appreciative thanks
 
somebody

please help, i've fallen and i can't get up.
 
If your running more than a few tracks at -6db and up your probably clipping the mix bus. Putting a master fader on your mix you can see if your overloading it. Don't lower your master, and don't throw a compressor on there! Leave it at 0db and lower your mix. Also don't worry about your volume being low. Concentrate on getting the mix to sound good. Volume is best achieved in mastering.

Also if your using pre-mastered material in your mix I would be very hesitant about using any processing on those tracks.
 
Yeah, what MBrane said. Those commercial trax have already been run thru 6 freakin' Quisinarts in series, then the last 2 dB of variation removed with probably 20:1 compression, etc - gawd, I hate commercial music -

By the same token, that acapella wave you're talking about may have the same PEAK value (-6) but odds are, the LOW levels of yours are MUCH lower, since the commercial one, again, probably has less than 2 dB of dynamic range left, if that.

Samplitude has (in the master section of the mixer) a selector for overall mix bus level - 0, -6, -12. etc - this is so you can have room for several "near zero" tracks and STILL not clip the mix bus. If Vegas Video has this, I'd set it down a notch for every half-dozen tracks or so, kinda play with it til you get no clipping out of the master section at 0 (kinda what Brane said)

You might try using "stem mixes" - submix all the commercial loops, etc, to a pair of tracks, and all your OWN recordings to a separate pair of tracks, then compress JUST YOUR tracks to taste and mix the two stems together, see how that sounds...

Some good suggestions here so far, oughta give you something to play with... Steve
 
okay

that was a lot to take in. back to the lab(cave). thanks everyone. i'll be back with more questions later.
 
knightfly said:

Samplitude has (in the master section of the mixer) a selector for overall mix bus level - 0, -6, -12. etc - this is so you can have room for several "near zero" tracks and STILL not clip the mix bus. If Vegas Video has this, I'd set it down a notch for every half-dozen tracks or so, kinda play with it til you get no clipping out of the master section at 0 (kinda what Brane said)
Click to expand...

Just curious here.....

What exactly is happening in Samplitude when you choose to attenuate the mix bus? Is it the equivilent of lowering the fader (which probably adds dither)? If so then your not achieving the same result as simply lowering your tracks to preserve headroom. Seems like there could be some "fuzzy math" going on there.
 
for knightfly

does that mix bus level function as a limiter? if so can't i just put a imiter in a submix?
 
Well - I am an overcompression addict... Can you help me?

Well you should be able to get this done, but...

Simply try one thing - is the completely liveless overcompressed sound the one you're looking for (like my ruined ears do :D).

I don't know how your original tracks sounded like, but I had some severe problemes in all of them. Bass and drums not consistently enough played a.s.o. I compress everything, every single track at least once (except overheads - they're completely uncompressed). I even compress distorted guitars, as I find the muted parts get too loud otherwise (why they get too loud - I'll never understand) When I throw these tracks together, they blend quite well, as I don't have to deal with these changes in volume. When it comes to the mix, buss, I compress everything again, on one hand to achieve more volume, on the other hand, as I like the feeling of setting a focus on the loudest instrument.
(I think it took me over a year to understand half way what I have to do to get my compression sound the way I want it to. )

To test, if you're perverted, too, try to kill your dynamics. Compress every single track with fastest attack, medium release. Set the threshold to something like 24dB below your peaks and to a ratio of 3:1

Blend them. The sound will prolly be somehow dull, as your transients will kinda get choked, but is this in the direction of what you're looking for? Well, then you're an addict, too...

aXel
 
Re: for knightfly

jugalo180 said:
does that mix bus level function as a limiter? if so can't i just put a imiter in a submix?
Click to expand...

With a limiter or compressor on the mix-bus you at least have some control over what's happening to the dynamics of your mix. I'd do that before lowering the fader or just chopping it off with some unknown kind of attenuation.;)
 
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