Help: What Components for a DAW?

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gvdv

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Hi,
I'm new to this forum, and to the whole world of DAW specifically (although I've been recording in the analogue world on-and-off for a few years, and have recently been recording with a friend on his DAW).

After having researched the various options for moving to digital recording for the last few months, I have finally decided to go with a DAW, and would like some advice on the kinds of components I should be looking at.

My needs are these:
1. Ability to record mostly analogue sources (i.e., plugging in guitars, drum
machines, keyboards etc.), and to INPUT 4 SOURCES SIMULTANEOUSLY,
PREFERRABLY 8 IF THAT IS POSSIBLE
2. Flexibility to also use MIDI (although this will not be the main emphasis)
3. Facility to process audio for video, too
4. Ability to burn to DVD, create mp3's, WMA's, WMD's etc..
5. Most of budget is to go on computer and other necessary recording
equipment, i.e., separate mixer, if necessary. I am willing to compromise
by NOT buying a 19" monitor, and by using some cheap - but good -
software like N-Track until I can afford to upgrade
6. Budget of approximately $1000-$1500 U.S. ($1500-$2000 CAN.)

I have looked at some of the M-Audio cards and don't really see anything there that suits my needs.

QUESTIONS
Given the above, here are my questions
1. What are systems like that are specifically built as DAW's - e.g.,
Carillon computers (www.carillonusa.com) makes just such a system?
2. Is it possible to effectively build a system like this myself, copying the
components?
3. What are some stable chipset / motherboard configurations?
4. What kind of speed chip will I need to run 16 tracks simultaneously and
well? (I saw a formula earlier today somewhere on the N-track users
group for calculating this generally, but am unsure of its accuracy)
5. What kind of outboard/physical equipment will I need in addition to the
computer, and sound card - most people seem to talk about a good mixer
with good pre-amps (what difference does this make in the 'real' world?)
6. Are there any other considerations that I haven't mentioned? (make of
fan that is quieter than others? Motherboard that has noisier components
like fan positioned physically as far away from hard drive as possible?
Makes of hard drive to look out for - I presume that a 7200 is minimum
requirement? Does the quality of the tower/case make a difference?)
7. What could I compromise on if I had to (I'm thinking preamps here)?

I appreciate any contributions or information no matter how basic you think it is, because I would like to make an informed decision.


Many thanks,

Geert, in Toronto
www.CollaborativeTherapy.com
 
gvdv said:
My needs are these:
1. Ability to record mostly analogue sources (i.e., plugging in guitars, drum
machines, keyboards etc.), and to INPUT 4 SOURCES SIMULTANEOUSLY,
PREFERRABLY 8 IF THAT IS POSSIBLE
2. Flexibility to also use MIDI (although this will not be the main emphasis)
3. Facility to process audio for video, too
4. Ability to burn to DVD, create mp3's, WMA's, WMD's etc..
5. Most of budget is to go on computer and other necessary recording
equipment, i.e., separate mixer, if necessary. I am willing to compromise
by NOT buying a 19" monitor, and by using some cheap - but good -
software like N-Track until I can afford to upgrade
Click to expand...

Lot of questions here. Try to read as much of the archive as you can. I'll try with some general answers:

1) 4 or 8 inputs is very possible, and even more. Generally you will spend more for a card with more inputs. Compare the features of the audiophile 2496, delta 44, and delta 1010 for example.

2) You would need a card with a MIDI interface, a MIDI controller (usually a keyboard), and a MIDI tone generator (soundblaster, other soundcard with MIDI, softsynths).

5) It's nice to have a big monitor, but yeah, it can wait.


QUESTIONS
Given the above, here are my questions
1. What are systems like that are specifically built as DAW's - e.g.,
Carillon computers (www.carillonusa.com) makes just such a system?
2. Is it possible to effectively build a system like this myself, copying the
components?
3. What are some stable chipset / motherboard configurations?
4. What kind of speed chip will I need to run 16 tracks simultaneously and
well? (I saw a formula earlier today somewhere on the N-track users
group for calculating this generally, but am unsure of its accuracy)
5. What kind of outboard/physical equipment will I need in addition to the
computer, and sound card - most people seem to talk about a good mixer
with good pre-amps (what difference does this make in the 'real' world?)
6. Are there any other considerations that I haven't mentioned? (make of
fan that is quieter than others? Motherboard that has noisier components
like fan positioned physically as far away from hard drive as possible?
Makes of hard drive to look out for - I presume that a 7200 is minimum
requirement? Does the quality of the tower/case make a difference?)
7. What could I compromise on if I had to (I'm thinking preamps here)?
Click to expand...

1) Turnkey DAWs are usually pricy.

2) Yes. Don't neglect to get a separate audio HD!

3) Search the board for many suggestions.

4) 16 track playback? Any recent chip should manage that. Most people now probably manage at least 32 tracks with a good number of plugins.

5) A mixer is the basic piece of outboard, although it's not strictly necessary. It is useful for preamps & signal routing for monitoring. If the mixer is going to be your primary preamp, it will serve you well to get a good one. Yamaha and Soundcraft seem to be popular choices. Search The Rack board for more info.

6) Quiet fans, quiet PSU, passive heatsinks, and sometimes HD enclosures if your PC is in your tracking room. Search this board for HD recommendations. 7200 is a good speed, the faster drives can be louder and the extra speed usually isn't necessary.

7) Don't compromise on preamps! I'm not suggesting you have to buy expensive ones, but don't use pres you know are garbage, because your recordings will sound bad. Pres on a basic good quality mixer will do without breaking the bank.

If you have to compromise (don't we all), buy one good quality mic to start with, small monitor, a bit less memory (but make sure you're set for future expansion), and put off buying monitors (speakers not CRT). That way your tracking is good quality.

There is another point of view that good monitors are the top priority, but I think that's if you're ready for mixdown right away. In my experience learning basic tracking takes long enough that monitors can wait a little while.
 
Hi MsHilarious,
Many thanks for your prompt reply - I only posted a little while ago - and your sage advice.

I'm not too concerned about learning basic tracking because I have enough experience doing that on 4 & 8 tracks to get my ideas down. But thanks for saying that, and for pointing out some things that I wasn't aware of, and hadn't thought about.

If you think of anything else, please post.

Thanks, once again,

Geert,in Toronto.
 
I just had a look at the audiophile and Delta cards, and was reminded that I left something out of my original posting.

I do want the option of being able to take a line out from my hi fi and another little Zoom digital 4 track (PS 04) into my computer, and I notice that the Audiophile 1010 does NOT (according to a review I read) allow line signals in ["You can connect any line level source, from professional processors to consumer hi fi equipment" - http://www.tweakheadz.com/review_of_the_delta_1010.htm]

Is there any way that in this case one can get an adaptor for the 2 RCA outs that, say, a CD player would have, and put them into a stereo 1/4" or whatever the 1010 might have?

Also, I'm unclear if the 1010 is a USB based device or not. I had preferred to not go with a mobile interface, but if this is a possibility, I would definitely go with firewire rather than USB.

Thanks,

Geert, in Toronto.
 
I would recommend
an Asus P4P800 (or one of their variants) mobo
P4 from 2.8c - 3.4c - don't get the Prescott as they run too hot
Min 512MB ram, pref 1GB. Get good stuff - the Asus site has qualifying brands
2 Seagate Baracuda HDs, 120 - 200GB ea. Use one purely for audio files
Fanless video card - maybe an ATI Radeon 9600XT
Case with 350-400W PS

Check out Newegg for prices. You should be able to get all the above for around $700 - $800. Then it's your choice of CD/DVD burner, crt or lcd monitor, wired/wireless kbd & mouse.

For a soundcard, it's currently hard to beat the M-Audio delta 1010lt. This give you 8 analog & 2 digital inputs, midi, wordclock & a couple of preamps. Cost you $220.

For a mixer, have a look at the Yamaha MG series. The MG12/4 will cost you $196, and would sit nicely in front of the delta card.

That would give you an 8 track recording facility for under $1500, or maybe a bit more if you go for an lcd rather than crt monitor.
That Asus/P4 combo will easily handle 32 track playback, or a few less if you've got some plug-ins going
 
ummm, the review said you can connect any "line level source", so why would you think you couldn't? Rca->1/4" adapters are your friend! You would just connect the 2 RCA cables to two 1/4" inputs on the Delta 1010 (BTW, The Audiophile is another card by M-Audio in the Delta line, so the Audiophile 1010 does not exist)
I have the Delta 44 which is similar to the 1010, but only 4 ins and outs.

The 1010 is PCI based.

Finally, there is NO need to hook a CD player up to the Delta (unless your PC doesn't have a CD-ROM drive!). Just pop the CD into your CD-ROM drive, and RIP the songs you want on your PC using some ripping software. Search here or on Google for some suggestions. This way you'll get an exact digital copy of the CD track.

gvdv said:
I just had a look at the audiophile and Delta cards, and was reminded that I left something out of my original posting.

I do want the option of being able to take a line out from my hi fi and another little Zoom digital 4 track (PS 04) into my computer, and I notice that the Audiophile 1010 does NOT (according to a review I read) allow line signals in ["You can connect any line level source, from professional processors to consumer hi fi equipment" - http://www.tweakheadz.com/review_of_the_delta_1010.htm]

Is there any way that in this case one can get an adaptor for the 2 RCA outs that, say, a CD player would have, and put them into a stereo 1/4" or whatever the 1010 might have?

Also, I'm unclear if the 1010 is a USB based device or not. I had preferred to not go with a mobile interface, but if this is a possibility, I would definitely go with firewire rather than USB.

Thanks,

Geert, in Toronto.
Click to expand...
 
Bulls Hit said:
Fanless video card - maybe an ATI Radeon 9600XT
Case with 350-400W PS
Click to expand...

I'll second the fanless video card--one less fan to worry about, plus I haven't heard many people complain about ATI (video cards can sometimes make audio life difficult).

For the case, I have an Antec Piano case which is gorgeous and comes with a quiet PSU and a quiet case fan. $107 at newegg. Please note this is a desktop, not tower case. Did I mention it's gorgeous? It has a blue LED surrounding a chrome power button.

Also, Plextor drives. MassiveMaster recommends the Plextor Premium CD burner; I have one of their DVD burners which is also very nice.
 
Bulls Hit said:
I would recommend
For a soundcard, it's currently hard to beat the M-Audio delta 1010lt. This give you 8 analog & 2 digital inputs, midi, wordclock & a couple of preamps. Cost you $220.
....That would give you an 8 track recording facility for under $1500, or maybe a bit more if you go for an lcd rather than crt monitor.
That Asus/P4 combo will easily handle 32 track playback, or a few less if you've got some plug-ins going
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion re. the line in stuff - I somehow saw the "cannot" from the previous sentence in place of the "can".

Re. the quote above, Bulls Hit, did you mean that this would give me an 8 input recording, i.e., possibly 8 track simultaneously, or actually the ability to only record 8 tracks in total? I hope that you meant the latter.

And thanks to everyone for the advice, corrections (especially concerning the CD thing, although I may actually want to be running 2 CD players into my software at the same time to cross fade for ideas for a radio show that a friend and I are working on).

Also, the ATI cards are a good suggestion - especially as a friend of mine designs them!!!! He was really pissed off that my Dell Inspiron laptop came with a GeForce card, so he'll be more than happy to help supply me with an ATI card.

Just a couple of quick QUESTIONS
1. What sort of difference would a fanless video card actually make?

2. The friend's computer that I have been recording on is a regular Daewoo (I didn't even know that they made computers) and it seems to work pretty well with his 2 input soundcard - we've had 8 tracks running simultaneously in the software. So, I'm wondering if it is necessary to go as high as I had originally budgeted to on the motherboard/chipset. What
does anyone think?

3. Any recommendations other than those already given for quiet HD enclosures etc. as the desktop will be in the same room that I'm tracking in?

4. What do I need to be looking for in a power supply? Is there any kind of rough 'formula' that I can use to calculate the wattage I'll need so that I am not underpowering the system? And how does the power supply figure into the heat and noise equation?

Thanks,

Geert, in Toronto
www.CollaborativeTherapy.com
 
The most poular video cards for DAW are the Matrox ones. They are pricey for what they are. They support dual monitors but so do many other brands now. The advantage with Matrox is that they are kind to the rest of the system, as they are not optimised for the fastest frame rates in games (in fact, they are quite useless for 3d games). G450 and G550 are popular models. They are fanless and you should experience fewer glitching problems when recording audio. This is not to say that you can't get it working well with a fanless ATi Radeon, but you have a better chance with a Matrox.

An LCD/TFT monitor is better than the big old CRT type because of lower interference emissions that can cause noise problems especially with single coil guitar pickups. Video looks better on a CRT though, so here you could exploit a dual monitor card and eventually have one of each.

It's ok to use a DVD burner for all duties, but for what they cost, a Plextor Premium CD burner is first choice for making audio CDs - so I would have both!
 
Could you ask your friend who works for Ati why the drivers pci latency setting is as high as 255? The Matrox is only 64! This is now being considered as the reason the Matrox cards are so popular in DAWs. Just curious ;)

No fan just means it's quiet. Some gamers cards have 2 fans and can make quite a racket!

For a DAW the minimum is 300watt, but 400w is a safe size to allow for future upgrades - extra drives and cards etc.

Yes, the M-audio Delta cards are cheap right now and they have drivers that suit most music software - not the case with all brands.
 
gvdv said:
Re. the quote above, Bulls Hit, did you mean that this would give me an 8 input recording, i.e., possibly 8 track simultaneously, or actually the ability to only record 8 tracks in total? I hope that you meant the latter.

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Click to expand...

The 1010lt will let you record 8 inputs onto 8 seperate tracks simultaneously. The total number of tracks you can record depends on your software. I use Cakewalk Guitar Tracks which will handle 32 tracks per projects. Cakewalk Sonar lets you record an unlimited number of tracks.

The other nice thing avout the 1010lt is if you get a bit crazy you can install 4 of them in a PC, synchronized together and have 32 track recording capability for under $900
 
mshilarious said:
For the case, I have an Antec Piano case which is gorgeous and comes with a quiet PSU and a quiet case fan. $107 at newegg. Please note this is a desktop, not tower case.
Click to expand...
Erm, I think you're talking about the Antec Overture...in 'piano black' finish. The same as their Sonata and Minuet. All great cases.

Bulls Hit said:
Fanless video card - maybe an ATI Radeon 9600XT
Click to expand...
Highly doubt that you're going to find a passively cooled 9600XT, maybe a 9600SE...of course you could always get a heatpipe style cooler...

Also with the power supplies, make sure you get a decent one. Some of the generic type PSU's can be pretty dodgey. A good quality PSU (e.g. Antec, tagan, Zalman...the list goes on) would be a good investment for peace of mind if anything.
 
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