HELP!!! need a luthiers advice

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wjierd

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okay, maybe i was stupid, but i was doing overnight security at the austin city limits fest and it was a bunch of long dark boring shifts watching no one steal nothing
so i brought my beloved epiphone acoustic thinking id get some practice in

one of the other hands bumped the table my git was leaning against and my poor baby fell about two feet onto its face

well

apparently it was just enough force to snap the headstock

now the headstock is flapping forward on a hinge of wood, the back of it seperated along the grain of the wood

any suggestions on how to fix this so it is at least playable again?

is this a cosmic suggestion that i give up on the guitar for awhile and concentrate on the mandolin?

do i even deserve a working guitar anymore?

thanks

~X
 
I feel your concern over your guitar.
A snapped headstock? A lot of pressure is applied to that area.
That happened to me once when a trailer turned over with our gear in it. I bought a new used guitar.

I don't have any idea on how to fix that, or even if it would be with the time and effort.

If it's a really nice guitar, not the economy line, you might look around for a used one with a bad body and switch necks.

I have grave doubts about your headstock.
Usually the split in the back can be fixed, but it'll cost ya.

Weigh the cost of repair to replacement.

Sorry I didn't have a wand to wave with a more favorable answer.
 
God is trying to tell you something...


either

(a) your old guitar was crap and you should buy a really expensive new one

(b) you shouldn't be playing guitar and should give up music entirely.

The only way to find out is to take option (a), and if it happens again then you'll have your answer....

:cool:
 
This is a routine, if major, repair for a luthier. Don't try to do it yourself. Save any splinters or odd pieces in a baggie, put the guitar in the case, detune it and take it to a competent repair person.

Make sure you get an estimate! It is the estimate that will tell you whether to repair or replace. Ask the repair person what makes the most sense. Good luck.
 
If the break was with the grain, as you said, then the repair is relatively easy, and is fairly common on Epiphones and on older Gibsons with an un-reinforced truss rod pocket. This is one of the reasons many builders build guitars with their truss rods adjustable through the soundhole. I would expect this job to take about an hour of labor (assuming the break was with the grain, and you bring the guitar in within a week or two), without cosmetic touch up. In my shop this means about $55.00. It is VERY important to get this done quickly, as the wood will oxidize if it is not glued up soon, and will not take glue well. If the break is across the grain, expect the repair to cost upwards of $300.00, because end grain does not take glue very well, and we need to touch up the finish because of the much more complicated repair.

Do not try and do this yourself. When you mess it up, we can no longer do the simple repair, and it will cost you much more money (more than double).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
This can be fixed, although it's not easy. I've reapired
3 including my own that had a similar break. If the headstock
and neck can be held together and line up perfectly you can do
one of two things:
1. simply glue it back in place...I've coated both pieces with
high strength epoxy and held them together by hand for,
say 5-10 min then carefully wrap masking tape around the glue joint
and let it sit for 2 days. I did this to m SG 15 years ago and
have had no problems since.
2. drill 2 1/8" holes in both pieces so a wood dial pin can be inserted
to strengthen the joint. this requires precision so the holes line up
perfectly. then use the same type of epoxy to glue it.
I've used both methods with great success, but I'd recommend
getting a competent repair person to do it.

Good luck
 
reaper sg said:
This can be fixed, although it's not easy. I've reapired
3 including my own that had a similar break. If the headstock
and neck can be held together and line up perfectly you can do
one of two things:
1. simply glue it back in place...I've coated both pieces with
high strength epoxy and held them together by hand for,
say 5-10 min then carefully wrap masking tape around the glue joint
and let it sit for 2 days. I did this to m SG 15 years ago and
have had no problems since.
2. drill 2 1/8" holes in both pieces so a wood dial pin can be inserted
to strengthen the joint. this requires precision so the holes line up
perfectly. then use the same type of epoxy to glue it.
I've used both methods with great success, but I'd recommend
getting a competent repair person to do it.

Good luck
Click to expand...


DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a very bad repair. First of all, if you use epoxy for this repair and something goes wrong, you are fucked. Their is no way to repair a bad epoxy joint. When people bring in a headstock that has been "repaired" with epoxy, we need to remove most of the wood in the area and replace it. This is at least a $500.00 job. When epoxy has been involved, it is usually more, as we can not get the pieces to line up. Second of all, hand pressure and masking tape can not provide sufficient pressure to clamp the joint. Third, when the joint is done right, there is no need to pin a long grain break. Finally, a good repair will have minimal effect on the value of the instrument, but a poorly done repair will ruin the value of the instrument.

Take your guitar to someone who does this for a living, someone who is good at it. There is no value in dong it yourself when you are in all likelihood going to have to bring to a professional to fix your mistake for almost ten times what it would have cost to get it done right in the first place.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
If the break is a long one with a good amount of wood......simply glueing it will do HOWEVER.....>Epoxy is crap for wood repairs.......never use it ever. Use wood glue only.
And unless it looks like an extremely straightforward glueing job.....don't do it yourself......get a luthier
 
excuse me gentlemen
sometimes circumstances require one to take extra measures to insure a permanent fix. In the case of this type of break it has to be done perfectly, you don't plan on rebreaking it and its not meant to be taken apart for any reason. So a glue joint that is stronger than the wood itself is required. My headstock broxe just behind the nut clean in two and I fixed it 15 years ago and
it's been perfect ever since. You can't even tell where the break occured. Why would one want to use glue that might possibly break down over a period of time. This type of break requires
a PERMANENT FIX. Working with this glue is not simple and you have to use the right kind as there are different types of epoxy.
In any event an experienced luthier should do this repair in the manner he sees fit.
Oh by the way I've been building and repairing guitars for around 30 years, learned from a luthier who built and repaired instruments for the Duquesne University Tamburitzans thru the 60's & 70's.
 
one more thing...if epoxy is so bad to use then why does Stewart Mc Donald sell it for repairing guitars. This is great glue for joints that dont require disassembly.

www.stewmac.com

glues and adhesives
 
A proper glue joint made with Tightbond, or any other good quality wood glue, IS stronger than the wood around it. The ideal glue, according to my friend Frank Ford, is hide glue, as it has a higher resistance to heat. I have never tried hide glue for a broken neck repair, so I don’t know. One of the problems with epoxy is it has a very low resistance to heat, expands as it cures, and is far to thick to be worked into a tight crack (such as when a peg head is hanging on by the peg head overlay). Epoxy is also impossible to clean up after it dries. When you get squeeze out (and you will) during clamping, you will cause severe damage to the finish while you are cleaning it up.

Stewart MacDonald does not sell Epoxy for repair work, they sell it for builders. There are jobs when building for which some luthiers prefer epoxy. I use it for gluing up the laminates in my five piece necks, for gluing the body wings on my neck thru electrics, as well as the tops on my electrics. On my acoustics, I would never use epoxy for anything but extensive fingerboard inlays.

From what was said, THIS is almost certainly the break we are talking about here. Check out the link to see what Frank has to say about it.

As long as we are bringing up qualifications, my families shop does over 2000 repairs of various sorts a year, and we have been doing this work for over thirty years. We are the warranty center for Gibson (for about 25 years now), and Martin (also for about 25 years now). We were one of the first warranty centers for Fender, and Taylor. Aside from PRS (who does not do warranty work), we do warranty work for every major US manufacturer. We have never had a single complaint on any warranty work we have done. We have done product testing for Stewart MacDonald and LMII. We are probably the largest repair shop in the upper Midwest. We have done more repair work than almost anyone in the country (excepting Frank Ford at Gryphon, and we have done far more electric work than Frank). I feel very confident that when our repair guys tell me the right way to do something, they are right.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
great pictures of that particular break. And with that type of
damage what is shown in the pics is exactly what i'd do for that
type of break. Thats an easy fix. The ones I've fixed were more
difficult because they were considered irrepairable by others.
The headstock snapped off right behind the nut, very little glue surface, almost like butting them end to end. I realized I had to
take extreme care using this glue but the results were a perfect
fit, no damage to the finish and 2 very satisfied customers. I still play mine today and you can't tell it was ever broke.
Hey, we all have our ways to do things and whats important
is the result...satisfied customers.
no hard feelings on my side
Take care!!!
 
reaper sg said:
great pictures of that particular break. And with that type of
damage what is shown in the pics is exactly what i'd do for that
type of break. Thats an easy fix. The ones I've fixed were more
difficult because they were considered irrepairable by others.
The headstock snapped off right behind the nut, very little glue surface, almost like butting them end to end. I realized I had to
take extreme care using this glue but the results were a perfect
fit, no damage to the finish and 2 very satisfied customers. I still play mine today and you can't tell it was ever broke.
Hey, we all have our ways to do things and whats important
is the result...satisfied customers.
no hard feelings on my side
Take care!!!
Click to expand...

Even for an end grain break, epoxy is the wrong repair. You are putting on a large amount of sheer stress on that joint, which most epoxies do not handle well. Epoxy also does not hold very well to end grain. Yours is a repair which may last a very long time for some guitars, but will not last on all guitars. Sometimes you get lucky. I would not be able to guaranty that repair. The repair we use is to glue every thing back in place, and then we use the idle drum on our belt sander (a 6x48 belt) to remove a scoop out of one side of the joint. This is done in one pass so the scoop has no faceting. We replace this wood with new wood, which has a very nice long grain gluing surface. We shape the new wood to the original neck dimensions. We then repeat this on the other side, and if needed, we do a third scoop on the backside of the neck (this is only for very severe breaks). We then blend in new lacquer to the existing finish. I can guaranty this repair for life, which I could not do with an epoxy on end grain repair.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Just a quick additional note......
I'm a piano technician of 28 years. I do it all day long every single day and I can say with certainty that hide glue sucks. The biggest single problem I have with older pianos that were built when hide glue was all there was, is the glue letting go. Heat and humidity cause it to let go and I see this on a weekly basis. Whenever someone calls with an older piano (usually those big old uprights) that has keys that don't work, i can be virtually sure that the problem is going to be jacks that have come unglued and it will be because the hide glue has gotten brittle and broken loose......I see it all the time.
 
Lt. Bob said:
Just a quick additional note......
I'm a piano technician of 28 years. I do it all day long every single day and I can say with certainty that hide glue sucks.
Click to expand...


I think your problem has more to do with it being old glue than it being hide glue. As you say in your post, you are talking about pianos which were made before there were any other glues. Tightbond (or any other wood glue) can deteriorate with age if the joint is not perfect.

Hide glue is amazing stuff. It is a little bit of a pain to use, until you get used to it, but it has many benefits. It has amazing resistance to heat (see THIS article on Frank Ford's site, frets.com), It dries much harder than any other glue (which, from a luthiers point of view, means it transfers vibration better, which means it sounds better), it is easy to clean up, it has little effect on the finish, and most importantly, it can be easily disassembled. All you need to do to remove it is get it hot and wet (neither of these are enough on their own). As a builder who runs a repair shop, this is a great advantage for me. I know that at least some of my instruments are going to need work in the future, and making that easier means I will spend less money on warranty work.

Violin makers and repairmen use hide glue for absolutely everything, because it is essential that they be able to take the instrument apart for repair work. If a violin cracks, you can not get inside of the instrument through the f-holes to patch it. You need to be able to take off the back. In my shop, we use it for repairs on old guitars which were originally made with hide glue, and for gluing the top braces and bridges on our own guitars. We do not use it for everything, but we use it a lot. Not nearly as often as Frank does, but often.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
bottom line...The repairs I did worked and they worked quite well and if I had to do it again I'd do it the same way.

and ltBob, your'e right hide glue does suck..I have a half dozen
beautiful mandolins that literally are falling apart because
the hide glue deteriorated.

I'm outta here
 
reaper sg said:
bottom line...The repairs I did worked and they worked quite well and if I had to do it again I'd do it the same way.
Click to expand...

Tell you what, go post what you did in the Luthiers Corner over at acousticguitar.com, and see what kind of response you get. HERE is the link. That is where all the luthiers hang out on the internet.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
There's nothing wrong with hide glue that a little experience and care won't fix. It has a lot going for it - relatively slow set up time, relatively environmentally inert, extremely strong when set, does not dampen sound, and will last for a hundred years, or until a repair is needed, whereupon it will release with a skillful application of moist heat.

Instruments that come apart when glued with hide glue probably have serious problems other than the glue - or else it wasn't real hide glue in the first place. The other potential is that the instruments may have sat in a hot car, which will pretty much destroy them.

There are acceptable (and perhaps better), other glues to use for instrument construction and repair, but epoxy is not on the list, except for a small number of things. It is a specialty adhesive and is not reversible. For that reason, epoxy is dangerous to use for general (or headstock) repairs on any instrument worth repairing.

Don't make assumptions about this neck fracture - take it to someone to get fixed.
 
Epoxy is best used when you don't have a tight joint between the two pieces of wood you're joining.Epoxy is strongest when it is thick.Yellow glue has poor gap filling properties.As Light says, yellow glue would be a much better choice for fixing this repair, which I would highly recommend having a luthier fix for you.Treeline, I definately agree with your comments on hide glue and epoxy.Both have their nitches in my shop and get used occasionally.Since it's a woodworking shop, yellow glue gets used the most.Let me also add that the hide glue you get in a squeeze bottle from the hardware store in no way compares to fresh mixed.
 
grinder said:
Let me also add that the hide glue you get in a squeeze bottle from the hardware store in no way compares to fresh mixed.
Click to expand...

LOL! It's not hide glue at all!

It's a stretch even calling that stuff glue! :D
 
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