Help Modifying Tascam MS-16 with Multispeed Switch

A

AnalogApples

Member
IMG_7589.webp
IMG_7588.webp

HI! I’ve recently completed my second modification of a Tascam MS-16 from 30ips to 15ips using the related thread here. This machine had been eaten alive by rats and needed lots of repair. I’d like to install a switch so that it can be changed from 15, 30, or 7.5 easily, like the OP did. He says he used DP3T switch. My question is, how would that work? I drew a diagram of a 3 position switch. I believe I need a switch that connects 2 unique poles in 3 positions. The jumper on the circuit board for each speed comes from 3 seperate spots and goes to 3 seperate spots, so it’s not a matter of changing one end of the jumper. Both ends of the jumper have to move. I’ve extended all 6 possible jumper points out the back of the machine and just need a recommendation for a switch the only connects red to red, OR blue to blue, OR black to black. Does a switch like the one I drew exist? I think it’s called a “changeover” switch. Or, if anyone can explain why a DP3T switch would work. Seems like I’d end up with a jumper coming from 2 spots at any switch position. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

To explain, the red wires connect for 15ips, and the blue and blacks must disconnect. For 7.5, the blue wires connect but red and black are disconnected, and so on. Is there a 3 position switch or knob that does this?
 
I am starting to think that the same voltage is present on one side of each of the three jumpers. So, technically, I could wire one side of the red blue and black wires together, and then change speeds by connecting either the red either the black or either the blue to it. They just laid it out funny on the PCB to look like I’m connecting three different spots to three different spots, when in reality, I’m connecting one spot to three different spots.
 
IMG_7591.webp


SOLVED: the circled solder points are all connected to the same 2 traces. I only needed one wire coming from each of those circles, not 3. Now I can attach the the DP3T switch and change the counter and speed bt sliding the switch.
 
Right…a DP3T switch means double-throw, three or triple-throw. Basically 2 independent sets of common “outputs” if you will, each with three selectable inputs.

If it was me I’d install jumpers. You’re wanting to easily switch the speed, I get it, but machines that are designed with this sort of selectable speed functionality typically also have multiple EQ adjustment pathways to match the speed change. So a machine that’s designed to operate on different speeds has multiple EQ adjustment pots, sets for each speed. In your case, since the MS16 is designed to be setup and operate at one speed (whether it’s 7.5, 15 or 30ips), and it has only one signal path per channel (one set of EQ adjustments), any time you change speeds you’re going to have to recalibrate the whole machine. So just keep that in mind. No matter how convenient you make it to switch speeds, you’re still going to have to go through the entire calibration procedure, whereas a machine designed to be quickly switched would have the separate EQ trimmers for each speed, and you would do a full setup for each speed, and then could easily switch between the speeds and each would be calibrated. The head profile and trim range of the adjustments on the MS16 were designed for 15ips. And that’s where it sounds best. It has great frequency response at 15ips…well over 22kHz…and that’s at 0dB +/-3dB. At 30ips the LF head bump is all wrong and you *may* improve HF performance, but how usable is another 2kHz of bandwidth when you’re already well over 20kHz? Yes there would be some improvement in s/n ratio, but if you’re using the dbx this is really a moot point. And if you’re not using the noise reduction, people seem to be fine with the dynamic range when the machine is setup to take advantage of +9 or higher class tape. Real-world reports indicate you lose the bottom-end at 30ips on an MS16, which is what you’d expect since the doubling of the tape speed shifts the response curve up an octave. If the -3dB point at the low end is 40Hz at 15ips, it will be 80Hz at 30ips. No thank you. You might be able to get some of that back using the LF repro EQ, but, again, the heads were designed for 15ips, so the gap and profile are not going to allow same performance at 30ips as at 15ips. And your tape time is cut in half/tape cost doubles. 7.5ips might be interesting…probably has a wicked low-end, but the bump might be in the wrong spot. HF performance is probably okay…maybe out to 18kHz or something? But the s/n ratio will worsen. If I had that machine I’d probably only use 7.5ips if I wanted to save on tape costs…and, I’d expect to be dependent on using the dbx, and then if I wanted to run it where it’s designed to run, at 15ips, I’d be grumbling at having to recalibrate. It’s a 15ips machine and performs well there.

The 58 and MS16 have the same amp card assembly. The design was a complete departure from anything Teac had done before, and it was introduced with the 58. It is not garden-variety at all. It is a DC servo design that mitigates DC offset minimizing the need for coupling caps in the signal path…similar to the Jensen twin-servo design…discrete front-end…it’s really pretty slick. And more costly to manufacture. The signal path sound and character on a tape machine comes from the head design and the amplifier electronics. The heads on the 58 were also a departure and next generation tech. The design carried all the way through until the ATR80 series, so includes the 38, MS16, 48, and ATR60 series. The difference between those machines I just listed is the amplifier electronics. The 48 is the only other one that is even close to the 58/MS16 design, but it is already a value-engineered departure from the 58/MS16 design…still discrete front-end, but the servo design is gone in favor of a more garden-variety design that incorporates and is dependent on coupling caps to mitigate DC offset. The ATR60 series takes a further step away and does away with all the discrete front end except for the first stage with the 2SK68/2SK70 dual transistor, and then right into an opamp. Jack Endino talks comparatively about the MS16 and ATR60 series…you can find the page if you do a web search…noting the MS16 actually sounds good…and he’s comparing a bunch of different machines and different formats. It’s a good read. But he shares his opinion the ATR60 series is noisier and just didn’t sound as good…which was curious in his notes because the heads are the same, and the tape path is extremely similar…well the amp circuit is why. He also talks about 15 vs. 30ips.

So all this is to say do what you want, experiment however you want, but the MS16 has a unique signal path, and it wants to eat at 15ips, and that’s where I would use it.
 
Last edited:
Right…a DP3T switch means double-throw, three or triple-throw. Basically 2 independent sets of common “outputs” if you will, each with three selectable inputs.

If it was me I’d install jumpers. You’re wanting to easily switch the speed, I get it, but machines that are designed with this sort of selectable speed functionality typically also have multiple EQ adjustment pathways to match the speed change. So a machine that’s designed to operate on different speeds has multiple EQ adjustment pots, sets for each speed. In your case, since the MS16 is designed to be setup and operate at one speed (whether it’s 7.5, 15 or 30ips), and it has only one signal path per channel (one set of EQ adjustments), any time you change speeds you’re going to have to recalibrate the whole machine. So just keep that in mind. No matter how convenient you make it to switch speeds, you’re still going to have to go through the entire calibration procedure, whereas a machine designed to be quickly switched would have the separate EQ trimmers for each speed, and you would do a full setup for each speed, and then could easily switch between the speeds and each would be calibrated. The head profile and trim range of the adjustments on the MS16 were designed for 15ips. And that’s where it sounds best. It has great frequency response at 15ips…well over 22kHz…and that’s at 0dB +/-3dB. At 30ips the LF head bump is all wrong and you *may* improve HF performance, but how usable is another 2kHz of bandwidth when you’re already well over 20kHz? Yes there would be some improvement in s/n ratio, but if you’re using the dbx this is really a moot point. And if you’re not using the noise reduction, people seem to be fine with the dynamic range when the machine is setup to take advantage of +9 or higher class tape. Real-world reports indicate you lose the bottom-end at 30ips on an MS16, which is what you’d expect since the doubling of the tape speed shifts the response curve up an octave. If the -3dB point at the low end is 40Hz at 15ips, it will be 80Hz at 30ips. No thank you. You might be able to get some of that back using the LF repro EQ, but, again, the heads were designed for 15ips, so the gap and profile are not going to allow same performance at 30ips as at 15ips. And your tape time is cut in half/tape cost doubles. 7.5ips might be interesting…probably has a wicked low-end, but the bump might be in the wrong spot. HF performance is probably okay…maybe out to 18kHz or something? But the s/n ratio will worsen. If I had that machine I’d probably only use 7.5ips if I wanted to save on tape costs…and, I’d expect to be dependent on using the dbx, and then if I wanted to run it where it’s designed to run, at 15ips, I’d be grumbling at having to recalibrate. It’s a 15ips machine and performs well there.

The 58 and MS16 have the same amp card assembly. The design was a complete departure from anything Teac had done before, and it was introduced with the 58. It is not garden-variety at all. It is a DC servo design that mitigates DC offset minimizing the need for coupling caps in the signal path…similar to the Jensen twin-servo design…discrete front-end…it’s really pretty slick. And more costly to manufacture. The signal path sound and character on a tape machine comes from the head design and the amplifier electronics. The heads on the 58 were also a departure and next generation tech. The design carried all the way through until the ATR80 series, so includes the 38, MS16, 48, and ATR60 series. The difference between those machines I just listed is the amplifier electronics. The 48 is the only other one that is even close to the 58/MS16 design, but it is already a value-engineered departure from the 58/MS16 design…still discrete front-end, but the servo design is gone in favor of a more garden-variety design that incorporates and is dependent on coupling caps to mitigate DC offset. The ATR60 series takes a further step away and does away with all the discrete front end except for the first stage with the 2SK68/2SK70 dual transistor, and then right into an opamp. Jack Endino talks comparatively about the MS16 and ATR60 series…you can find the page if you do a web search…noting the MS16 actually sounds good…and he’s comparing a bunch of different machines and different formats. It’s a good read. But he shares his opinion the ATR60 series is noisier and just didn’t sound as good…which was curious in his notes because the heads are the same, and the tape path is extremely similar…well the amp circuit is why. He also talks about 15 vs. 30ips.

So all this is to say do what you want, experiment however you want, but the MS16 has a unique signal path, and it wants to eat at 15ips, and that’s where I would use it.
Forgot to mention I modded all the amp cards too. (Modded to 15ips) Kinda glad I forgot to mention that, because that was an excellent read. Thank you! Myself and my friends are all addicted to the music we are making with the MS-16. The sound is larger than life and proves Dave Grohl’s quote “Good recording equipment makes you sound better than you actually are.”

Creating an analog studio with the MS16 and the Tascam M3500 board has been the BEST risk I’ve taken for a hobby. Musicians in the Madison Wisconsin area are loving it, and it’s a joy to share analog recording sessions with them. (I never charge money, spoils the fun for me)
 
So you modded the cards back to 15ips. So why incorporate the easy access speed change mod? 15ips is where it’s at for that machine. Glad you are having a good time with it. That’s great. I work in digital and analog, but find I have an easier time getting a good sound with an analog signal path. And how did you know what to revert? There are no schematics available for factory 30ips or 7.5ips.
 
Last edited:
So you modded the cards back to 15ips. So why incorporate the easy access speed change mod? 15ips is where it’s at for that machine. Glad you are having a good time with it. That’s great. I work in digital and analog, but find I have an easier time getting a good sound with an analog signal path. And how did you know what to revert? There are no schematics available for factory 30ips or 7.5ips.
I used the thread here detailing the mod. This is the second MS-16 I’ve done this too with no troubles. The guy that did the mod thread here put a switch on his too, so I felt like putting one in. It’s really just for fun, like recording one instrument at 30ips then slowing it down and recording the other instruments at correct 15ips. Just for special effects, you know? Increases the versatility of the deck, even though the EQ will be wrong unless it’s used at 15 ips.

I figured out that I can pop off the transport buttons assembly and install a 15 foot wire loom and I’ve got an instant remote for the machine. I plan to do that to this machine also. Luckily the volt signals going to the buttons can handle that distance. I might try a 20 foot cable this time.

Do you like my guerilla remote transport mod? It’s easily reversible, you just unplug the super long loom and reconnect the regular loom, screw it bsck into the machine. I created a Plexi glass box to house the disembodied transport. The record/play lights illuminate the entire box so the musicians can see that lights are on. So much fun. I took the cover off the head assembly so I could see the tape thread easier. Then I got yelled at because that cover protects against RF interference, but I haven’t noticed a quality loss—so I run it without a cover. No kids or knuckleheads in the studio so it’s safe from getting damaged.
IMG_6997.webp
 
Can you post a link to the mod thread you’re talking about?

And I understand better now what you are doing with the speed control mod. Thanks for explaining that.

And yeah what you’re doing with your low-budget remote control solution is perfectly legitimate. I thought of doing something similar with my 58 as a solution to having the functionality of the RC-51 full-function remote, which is impossible to find…I was going to use my RC-50 transport remote in combination with a portion of the arming panel out of my spare 58 to essentially add the track arming and source mode switching functions and just get a long ribbon cable and add the connections to the ELCO connector of the RC-50…Siamese it in there…not exactly the same as what you are doing…then I found an RC-51. In your case I wouldn’t worry about 20ft being too long or even longer. There is +15V and +5V power to the keyboard PCB and display, but the current should be very low…it’s all small current logic stuff. 26AWG stranded wire, which is what I think is used between the PCB and the main unit, can handle 2-3A of current over conductor lengths much longer than 20ft depending on the voltage. And the current passing in that system is much less than that. 25, even 50ft shouldn’t be a problem.
 
Can you post a link to the mod thread you’re talking about?

And I understand better now what you are doing with the speed control mod. Thanks for explaining that.

And yeah what you’re doing with your low-budget remote control solution is perfectly legitimate. I thought of doing something similar with my 58 as a solution to having the functionality of the RC-51 full-function remote, which is impossible to find…I was going to use my RC-50 transport remote in combination with a portion of the arming panel out of my spare 58 to essentially add the track arming and source mode switching functions and just get a long ribbon cable and add the connections to the ELCO connector of the RC-50…Siamese it in there…not exactly the same as what you are doing…then I found an RC-51. In your case I wouldn’t worry about 20ft being too long or even longer. There is +15V and +5V power to the keyboard PCB and display, but the current should be very low…it’s all small current logic stuff. 26AWG stranded wire, which is what I think is used between the PCB and the main unit, can handle 2-3A of current over conductor lengths much longer than 20ft depending on the voltage. And the current passing in that system is much less than that. 25, even 50ft shouldn’t be a problem.
Thanks for the tip, I’ll try a 20 foot cable this time. I’m actually using a 60 conductor cable, not a ribbon wire. I bought a 60 pin adapter that allows me to screw in each of the wires, then I can plug the rectangular loom-plug into it.

Here’s the thread of the mod: https://homerecording.com/bbs/threads/ms-16-30-to-15ips-conversion-or-vice-versa.388846/
 
What are the specs on the 60-conductor cable and where did you get it? I want to make a 50ft ELCO extension cable for my RC-51.

Thanks for the link!
 
Does the cable have an overall shield?
No it doesn’t. Just a plastic outer insulation then each individual solid core wire is insulated in plastic. The cable isn’t super flexible but that hasn’t bothered me at all. And I confirmed it’s 24awg wires inside. I first tried finding adapters to fit on the ends that come with the cable, and it was a nightmare findings anything that worked for DIY project. So then I ordered the breakout boards.
 
Okay, thanks for that info…yeah I need cable with an overall shield, ideally braided.

Yeah those screw-terminal connector PCB assemblies are great. I’ve used a few different Phoenix-type connector boards for some different projects…really great solutions.
 
Back
Top