Help in what to get

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dbowers

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I am pretty new to the whole relm of recording, but familiar with live sound. We have a band that we are trying to get a good sound to tape on. Some of the equipment that we have is an Alesis 1622 mixing board, Alesis Microverb4 (which can be found here http://alesis.com/downloads/manuals/index.html) and a Behringer graphic eq. (can't remember which one 32 band stereo though I think) I have been looking at the manual for our board and it talks a lot about recording. What I would like to know is what additional equipment do we need to get to do some multitrack recording and then mixing down in order to get a good sounding tape that we could possibly create a cd off of. I would like to use the equipment we have as much as possible. I hope all that makes sense. I went to our local musci shop that sells equipment and nobody would give me the time of day there, so any help would be much appreciated.
 
Is this the complete list of your equippment?
If not why don't you list the rest so everyone can make suggestions from there.

Pete
 
dbowers,

in general, you can look at recording in the following phases to help you understand what basic equipment you will need to start your recording endeavors:

1) Basic Recording: You'll need microphones, at the very least two for recording in stereo. Although you can get by with two mics to record drums, a much better sound will be obtained by four or more, each placed for the most predominant instruments in the kit: the hi hat, kick, snare, and toms (at least two mics for toms if you want to record tom fills in stereo). Don't forget mic stands to position the mics. An overhead rack for the drums, adjustable boom stands and smaller ground stands for other purposes.

You'll need mic preamps to raise the level of the microphone signal so that your other equipment can handle the recording signal properly. Your mixer may already have preamps built into it, but more often than not, a good stand alone preamp will be of higher quality. You'll obviously need to use a preamp for every signal picked up by a microphone, so depending on whether you record one track at a time or several at once you may need to get more than one preamp, or a dual preamp rack, or use your mixer to combine signals to one or two preamps.

You'll need a multi-track recorder to record your music onto. These come in a few different formats, depending on your needs: cassette tape, super vhs (e.g. ADAT), mini disc. You can also use a computer, provided you have multitrack software, a good chunk of RAM and disk space, and a good soundcard. Varieties include 4,8,16-track recorders. For computers, the only limit to the number of tracks is the RAM, disk space, and processing power.

2) Mixing: You'll need your mixer to combine all the tracks you recorded down to a two track format. Here is where you play with fader levels, eq, reverb, delay, and basically getting the mix to sound the way you think your audience will want to hear it. You'll need cables too. Lots of them. But try to keep cable runs as short as possible (even when recording).

You'll also need another recording device to record your mix down to, hence the term mix-down deck. Again formats vary: cassette, vhs, dat, cd. I don't recommend DAT since not many people caught on to the format. The preferred format would obviously be CD, so get a CD burner or use the one on your pc.

3) Mastering: This is where final adjustments are made to your mix to give it polish and refinement. This is better done by a mastering professional, unless you just want to learn how its done, then be prepared to spend major $$$ and many years learning..

4) Packaging and distribution: though you can do this yourself with label software and your CD burner, you can also get it done in greater quantities in faster time by sending your master to a mastering house.


For specific brandnames of the above equipment, crack open a music catalogue and spend time with the search feature at this site.

Cy
 
Good info...let me add

This is some of the information that I needed. We actually have a lot of this equipment...I just hadn't thought of listing it. We have several Sure SM58 Mikes, a couple SM57's and a couple of other mics. As far as cables we have all the mic cables and stands that we could ever need. We also have all the 1/4's that we could ever need. We have plenty of stands. I know that our board does have 8 mic pre amps on it and then the other 8 are 1/4". I guess what I would like to do from what I understand about the board is run all the mic inputs into the board and then go from the direct outs of the board to a multitrack recorder and then monitor it by going from the outs of the recorder back into 9-16 on my mixer. I guess I would like to use the board as much as possible so I don't necessarilly need the multitrack to do this so I would need a good, and cost effective, recomendation there. As far as mixing and stuff we do have a PIII 850mhz with 512 mb of ram and about 40gig of space. No software however so I am open to some suggestions there. I sure appreciate the feed back so far...We can use our board to mix down to stereo once we have recorded. I am guessing at mix down is where we add our affects like reverb, eq, gates, compressors, etc...I could also use a couple of recomendations in regards to compressors and gates. Thanks again.
 
Well, you need a multitrack recorder or a some additional equipment for you computer. You can't really mix after the stereo out, you have to mix with the 1622 and record with a multitrack of somekind, they are interrelated for recording. If you choose to use the PC for your multi track you need a multiple input sound card that can handle the number of direct outs on the mixer, not really cost effective IMO, another way is a 8 channel A/D converter that sits between your 1622 and a digital capable sound card, still kinda costly. I don't know what your price range is so I could recommend 2 ADATs, about 900 bucks each for B-Stocks (id get a Mackie MDR24/96 for $1999,00), or a used 16 track analog recorder like a Fostex E-16, if you want only 8 tracks its cheaper of course. Once you have it recorded on ADAT or whatever you can mixdown to a PC pretty easily. If you want real basic 2 track digital editor that does both Red-Book Cd and MP3's Sound Forge 5.0 XP, is about a 100 bucks. For about $500 you could hook your 1622 to a ST Audio C-Port DSP2000 or a Terratec EWS88MT for about $499.00. Once you get to a point on what your getting there will be more than enough experience at homerecording.com to expedite the learning curve.

Peace,
Dennis
 
Thanks Dennis

Dennis,

That helps alot...it sounds like what we want to do if I am understanding right is to get an ADAT and do the following:
Go from whatever we want to record into the mic preamps on our board then go from direct outs on our board into the inputs of the ADAT (we will probably go with and 8 for now) then go from the outs of the ADAT into inputs 9-16 on our board to monitor off of. Then after we have what we want on the ADAT go from the outputs of the ADAT back into our board where we will add all of our effects and then we can mix those down to stero where I can either go to a tape deck or into my computer(if I get a stereo card). If we went into the computer we could burn cds that way I guess. Does that all sound about right?

Thanks again for all the help!
 
I think the 1622 has tape returns for bringing the signal back from the outputs of the ADAT, so you don't have to take up 9-16, you can save those inputs for otherthings if needed. If you already have a sound card on your PC, its should have even a basic one, you can get an adapter chord that uses a 1/8 mini trs plug to dual rca plug , the 1/8 mini goes into the line input of the soundcard and the dual rca goes into a tape return, the manuals for the ADAT and the 1622 show clear diagrams for acomplishing everything you need to know. Happy times are ahead :0)...

Peace,
Dennis
 
More Questions

Dennis,

First off let me thank you for all of your help...it has been hard finding anyone around where I live to give me a hand. I think I got a little confused by your last post. Let me see if I can break it down and you can either confirm or deny.

1. Instrument or vocal to preamps on the board (1-8)
2. Direct out from the board to the ADAT
3. Here is where I get confused. The manual for the 1622 says to go from the outputs of the multitrack(in this case the ADAT) back into the 1/4's (9-16) to do some monitoring without affecting the signal going to the ADAT. Are you saying I can skip this step and go into my computer from here through the tape returns?

or

Once we have everything on the ADAT go from the outputs of the ADAT back into the board and add all the effects and mix it down to two channels and go to the computer?

or
(I am learning that there are so many options)

Somehow go from the ADAT directly into the computer and get a software program to do all the mixing and effects.

I a getting it slowly but surely so I sure appreciate your paitence with this rookie.

Thanks,
Donald
 
Re: More Questions

dbowers said:
3. Here is where I get confused. The manual for the 1622 says to go from the outputs of the multitrack(in this case the ADAT) back into the 1/4's (9-16) to do some monitoring without affecting the signal going to the ADAT. Are you saying I can skip this step and go into my computer from here through the tape returns?

dbowers,

Using channels 9-16 on your mixer for monitoring is certainly an option, provided you don't use the main L and R outs of the mixer to record into ADAT. You could also use your computer as you described, but the signal will still have to be mixed down to two tracks to hear it out of the computer, unless you have multiple outs on your soundcard, in which case you would still have to go back into the mixer to hear everything.

What I do is use the main aux outs to send the signals to ADAT (adjusting the levels using the pre-send fader) while monitoring the outputs on separate mixer channels.. that way I can adjust the levels and eq settings of the tracks while the only signals going to the ADAT are the ones I intend to record..

Bear in mind that my mixer only has two aux outputs, and I only record tracks at the most two at a time. I don't know if your mixer has separate aux ins and outs per channel (check the back of the console if you are unsure), but if it doesn't then this may only work with two tracks at a time.

Cy
 
Hmm...interesting

Cy,

Thanks for the info. I know our board only has two pre sends and 4 post sends so I guess what I would like to do is go from the board 1-8 into the ADAT leave the ADAT and go back into the board on 9-16 so I can listen while we record. Then when we are done go from the outs of the ADAT back into the board

...then I have another question...when do I not?

would it be better to add all of the effects here and then mix down to two channels and go into our computer for some final stuff and burn to cd

or

mix down to two channels on the board (with a dry mix no effects) and go into the computer and then add some effects to the overall mix.

or somehow still go into the computer with each individual track then add effects in the computer and do the mixing there and then burn to cd?

I feel kinda dense because I keep asking for clarification, but if you don't ask, you don't learn.

Thanks,
Donald
 
dbowers,

no need to feel dense. Things can get quite confusing regardles of your experience in recording. And don't worry if you are asking too many questions. The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked..

I think the best approach would be to record using channels 1-8 on your mixer into ADAT, (with the signal sent through aux), and use channels 9-16 for monitoring. When that's set up, do a rough recording of all the instruments, trying at this point to get the absolute best sound possible without any effects: no eq, no reverb, nothing. Just work with mic placement. If you really really feel that you must have reverb on a particular track, then add it--but only sparingly. Be even more strict when it comes to eq and other effects. My point here is that you should stay away from effects until after the tracks are recorded. Effects can always be added during mixing, but you are stuck with an effect that was recorded with the initial track. Sometimes I will add just a touch of reverb to guitars and drums at this stage to give it a little breathing space.

A common practice of many of the pros here is to spend one day just getting the specs right: setting up the drums and mics and recording just a basic mix to get a good idea of what limitations you'll have to deal with and any corrections to the mic placements and acoustics that need to be made.

When that's done, then you can start recording the tracks for real. Once you have everything recorded to ADAT, then you can devote your listening time to determining what effects will work and where. If you get multitrack software, then you can upload your tracks into the pc and apply software effects plugins in whatever variety you choose, or if you would rather use outboard processors, then you can place the processor in between the ADAT and the computer. If you decide not to get multitrack software, then you can still use your computer to burn the cd. The only difference is you will be mixing in real time and will need to switch out the effects and adjust faders as you go along.

So in summary, my suggestion for you would be to plug the mics into mixer channels 1-8, the outputs of which go into the inputs of the ADAT. The outputs of the ADAT go to channels 9-16 on the mixer for monitoring. Record with minimum to no effects. Then mix the 8 tracks down to 2 tracks via cd burner or using multitrack software while applying your effects.

One other thing: always use studio monitors when you are trying to get a good initial sound and when you are mixing. You can use headphones when you are actually recording the track.

Cy
 
The Lights have come on!!

Cy,

Thanks a bunch...That was exactly what I needed to know. That helps me out a lot. I agree after looking at costs for things that we will probably want to go to the ADAT and then do some monitoring, then possibly get a sound card and some software and do all the mixing on computer...seems to be the most cost effective way all around. Your last post gave me the answers that I was looking for in a very logical order...finally somebody that is willing to go step by step instead of saying "I am not sure what you want"

In regards to software...I have been looking a lot at the forums other sites etc...I am looking for a recommendation. I have seen both good and bad on Pro Tools and I have also been looking at stuff like Paris Pro. Also see some suggestions for some lower end stuff like the Sonic Foundry stuff...seeing what we have and kinda what we are doing (band with 2-3 vocals, 1 acoustic guitar, 1 electric, 1 bass, and drums) any recommendations? I know that we will probably have to do it in a couple of sections if we do that ADAT to get a good recording on the drums.

Thanks again for all the help!

Donald
 
dbowers,

My recording workhorse is an ADAT-XT and I love it. Setup is minimal and it's very user friendly.

Unfortunately though, I don't have a computer in my studio yet, so I can't help you out in recommending software, other than the fact that a lot of people here tend to lean towards pro-tools. I also know that you will benefit by getting the best soundcard you can afford because you want good A/D converters.

You might want to copy the last paragraph of your most recent post and paste it in the Computer Forum. Someone there should be able to help you out.

Best of luck,

Cy
 
Thanks a bunch

Cy,

Thanks for all the help that is what I will do.

Do you think you could send me a schematic or picture of how you have your setup...that would probably help a lot as well

Thanks,

Donald
 
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