Help!...Arguing with a Stubborn Engineer!!!!

  • Thread starter Thread starter UtahBites
  • Start date Start date
U

UtahBites

New member
Greetings all...great forum here!
I’ve been an outside reader for a while now and thought you all would be quite helpful with a problem I'm having...
I am in a band who has done a few home-recording sessions on a VS1680. We own a $10,000 PA system, but our recording equipment purchases have been limited--We don't own studio monitors, and only have a mediocre set of headphones.
A band member owns the 1680 and has been quite adamant about doing all of the recording/mixing/mastering on his own. He has a good ear, but isn't very experienced at recording/mixing/mastering.
We have tried for a while to convince him that we NEED studio monitors to record proper levels so that we get a more "true" response of what we are recording. Our ultimate goal is to achieve a high-quality radio-worthy product as we will be investing in an outside mastering company.
The rest of the band has agreed that shelling out money for outside mastering would be a good investment because we can do a high-quality recording on our own to save some $ we can use to invest in mastering and reproduction costs.
He takes our opinion as a personal slap in the face against his abilities to do it all himself. How do you convince someone that musical talent cannot compensate for lack of equipment and resources in trying to achieve professional studio-quality recording??
He is downright ADAMENT that he can "record everything flat" using our Peavy PA speakers as "sufficient" studio monitors (both for recording levels AND mixing/mastering).
So then...WHO IS RIGHT?!?!?!?
I believe that without "real" studio-quality monitors, we are going to get a recorded mix that is untrue of the actual tones and levels that we think we are hearing during playback through our PA system, and whoever tries to master it will not be able to achieve the results we are looking for because the recording and initial mix-down will be inherently flawed.
I am hoping for some expert advice/feedback from you good folks as I have used this forum as a resource for great info quite often, and the knowledge base here has proven to be invaluable time after time
(really…I’m not trying to suck-up just to get you all to respond!)
Thanks for your time and feedback in advance...
(Utah Bites)
 
Utah,

I would say that *you* are correct in this situation. Your bandmate might be able to get a decent approximation of what the perceived tones are from your PA speakers, but he will never get as good of an idea as you would with high quality recording monitors. PA speakers are meant for higher volume, wide dispersion listening... they are workhorses meant to hold up to abuse etc and the cabinets are designed to get as much projection of usuable frequencies as possible with the least amount of wasted power... studio monitors on the other hand are for accurate CLOSE listening of the details of the sounds... and very often need a fair amount of power (depending on porting) to get to higher volumes. He might be able to get away with using the Peaveys during the TRACKING (but even that is doubtful, as you want things to sound CORRECT as you record... rather than recording with the idea that you can re-eq and fix everything in the mix), but you would not be wise to use PA speakers for the final mix/mastering process.

Do yourself a favor... get a nice quality set of monitor speakers and a clean decent powered amp.

Elvis
 
Velvet Elvis with the silver tongue. I believe Elvis is 100% correct. You are the one that is in the right, for what you want to achieve.
And your buddy is All Shook up ;)
Good luck Utah, T.J.


[This message has been edited by T.J.Hooker (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
1. Buy the monitors.
2. Pop up when Mr Engineer is doing some recording, and connect them and try them out.
3. If he doesn't say "Yeah, this is SO MUCH BETTER" and sais he doesn't want to use them, tell him that if he doesn't WANT them, you'll take them home and put on your stereo, cuz they sound fucking brilliant, but you think that he could have better use of them.
4. The gear junkie inherent in all wannabe engineers will then take over and he'll scream "No, they are MINE! MINEMINEMINE".
5. Happy end.
:)
 
This is what I would do. Hummor the guy, record one song with him using your PA system. Give him the bennifit of the doubt, and let him do his thing. Once he has finished recording and mixing the song, take it to various sources and play it back. If it sounds like crap to the band on everything you guys play it through, then you have a case to tell your friend that he needs monitors. There is that slight chance that he might suprise you. Anyway, recording one song with him sould not kill you; just don't record more until you know how that first one turns out.
Hope this helps!
 
Originally posted by Fishmed:
This is what I would do. Hummor the guy,

I don't think this is what Fishmed was trying to say. Don't give the guy a hummer. Humor him. :p

I'm sorry Fishmed I could'nt resist. I didn't mean to imply that you can't spell. Just a typo they happpen. But they are not usally that funnny.(LOL)
Click to expand...
 
Thanks TJ, Velvet, Fish, regebro...All the input is very helpful for our band and should help to resolve our little philosophical disagreements...
We actually have recorded a demo where he did all the mixing/mastering and it turned out pretty good initially, but for this new recording venture, we were hoping to achieve a more professional quality recording (hence, the suggestions for better equipment and outside expert help with the mixing/mastering aspects), so I'm not sure the rest of us are very hip to the possibility of ending up with a similar product all over again. We need a great sounding CD and can't really afford to use up anymore of our valuable time that we are loosing fast, so if we’re going to attempt one song, we might as well do the half-dozen we planned.
I have read A LOT on this topic and most of the advice/info suggests that achieving a consistently level-sounding industry compatible CD (across all of our different sounding songs) using only our 1680 (w/no monitors) is going to be damn near impossible, and that is my main argument against trying this again w/out the proper equipment and outside help...
BTW Fish...we're a close band, but we're not THAT CLOSE MAN!!!!! :eek:
(j/k)
keep up the good work all!
utahbites
(musically, anyway)
 
Why don't you guys rent some fancy pants monitors? It's pretty cheap to rent stuff like that for a weekend. Mix using those and see if it turns out better.
 
The only way to show him is to let him listen. The thing with PA speakers is that everything will sound OK on them, but nothing will sound GREAT. So, you do 4 months of recording, you think your stuff sounds awesome, and then you "finish" it, take it out to you car to give it a listen, and nothing but sad faces from everyone. In fact, I just told the story of my experience with recording myself. When I first started out I thought I'd be able to record fine with just my PA speakers, but we were nothing but dissapointed with what we ended up with. I then realized that I needed to get some studio monitors. When I first got them I thought they sounded like crap, but then I realized that it was just the stuff I was putting into them. The way I had done it before was soooo bad. Now everything I record sounds really good, and it's all because of the monitors. Of course you have to be ready to shell out about $3,000 for a good pair, and more for a really good pair. Can you get your project mastered for less than that from someone else? Sure, but what about your next project, and your next project? Your first project isn't going to be your last, and it probably won't get you famous. So think about it.
-Later
 
What's up Beehive man??????

What band are you in???? are you guys giggin around here???

I would have to agree with you on monitoring..but im not going to say anymore because it looks like its already been covered.....Its good to see some fellow Utahns around here....i was getting lonely........Utah does suck for musicians...... :(


Heat
 
I think it all depends on how much beer has been spilled on your Peavey speakers....I know FOR A FACT that Bob Ludwig tries to spill AS LITTLE beer as possible on his personal Peavey speakers that he totes to different mastering gigs in the back of his '83 chevy pickup.
 
Do one recording HIS way and take it to a pro mastering enginneer and let the pro talk to him.
 
Whooaaaa there Brian Grey 3,000 bucks to get good monitors? Sure there are some that cost that much but man there are Pro monitors for SO much less. Take the NS-10M for example for under 400 bucks and almost every pro state of the art studio in the country uses them. If you want to get a true mix listen to those puppies. They sound like flat shi* but when you make a mix sound good on those and then take it to the car and listen you about shoot in your pants. No sad faces there. ;-)
 
i thought really the only reason why most studios use ns10s was for "shitty reference". In other words, mix it on the good stuff, and then its ready, "play it on the shit". if it sounds good there, print it!!
 
Hey UtahBites and Heat,
I thought I was the only Utahn here (I'm in Utah county).
What kind of music are you guys playing?
I agree with everyone else, get some monitors. I'm running an 1880 with Mackies and it's working out pretty well.
Tell your stubborn bandmate to go eat some green jello (with shredded carrots, of course) and wake up to the fact that PA speakers aren't very flat, and he can't match what a pro mastering studio can do.
Rock On
 
Skyline609,

This is debateable, but NS10's aren't "crappy" sounding. What you described seems to be what Auratones are used for... cheap & crappy. To me NS10's simulate an environment like a car or portable stereo, where the speakers aren't full-range, bass-thumpin'. The limited bass response on the NS10's give an engineer a simulation of what many listening environments are... probably most listening environments.

Rev E
 
I am another Utah-an (Utahn, Utahite ??)

My response will reflect my Daoist philosophy (also, I am no expert):
Is there really any reason for conflict ?
Your engineer feels some sense of ownership because of the time and money he has already invested. Why not:
1. Let him do his thing.
2. Rent some "good monitors" to help him out.
3. COPY THE DIGITAL INFO and have a "pro" work on it (or go to a studio) in parallel with these effort. Explain to him that you just want to see if the "pro" is really worth it. If the band is democratic, even he will have to go along with some little compromises.

Remember that most "pro" audio engineers are just like your buddy, but kept at it and learned from their mistakes. Just keep backups of all your recordings so the mistakes are not irrecoverable from.
You can still do the PRO thing in parallel as long as you are willing to shell out the $$$.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top