"Hello Brain-iacs" Or "Ducking Compressors"

[Qwerty]

Hello Clever People,

Moskus, Dachay, Acid, Jamal, associated gurus I am far too ignorant to bring to mind - I am looking at u.........

My question is this -

I have been reading many articles on www.studiocovers.com and others about ducking compressors; side-chaining gates to reverbs, compressors activating off other tracks etc, etc, etc..... And I am getting very confused!!!!!!!!!!!!

After examining Sonar 2.2 XL and my current array of toys -- some hot, some not -- I am left doing a "What the ....?"

Specifically - I understand a ducking compressor, (in studio land), allows you to trigger the compression of a track based upon a different input track, eg. u create a sub-mix of ur rhythm tracks and apply a compressor to it -- which is then chained to activate on the signal of the vocal track. The rhythm tracks "perceived volume" is then reduced whenever the vocal track makes a noise above the threshold - ie. it "ducks" down in volume to allow the vocals to be heard slightly more clearly.

At this point, I choose to ignore the people who say "Why on earth would you want to make your vocals any louder?"

So -

How the hell do I accomplish that in Sonar XL?? Don't see no "side-chain" or "duck" options anywhere in the included plug-ins........ Then again, masturbation has left me completely blind in one eye....... The only solution I can think of is to manually draw descending envelope fades into the rhythm track sub-mix whenever the vocal track is sounding........ And I am WAY to lazy for that after spending the last seven months of my life editting every single drum and bass note back to the bar on my current 120min project .........

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Oh yeah - long time, no post.. Sorry.......... (and to think of all those chrisharris songs I have missed in the mp3 clinic....)

On a similar vein -

Gating reverbs - the story goes that the great, big, wonderful, Bowie chorus sound in "Heroes" is built using a three stage gated reverb setup. Three sets of mics - one close, one 6ft or something-or-other away and the other 18ft away -- each with it's own gated reverb unit. If he sang quietly he only got the first mic, which only triggered the first reverb that only had a small room reverb effect. A little louder he hit the second set of mics that had a medium room reverb and if he really bellowed it brought in the last set of room mics which were reverbed to the proverbial outdoor dunny........... For those of you who don't speak "Ozztralian", 'dunny' really means 'shithouse'.

So, associated panel of prestigious proselytes? Any thoughts about efficient CPU usage and set-up to emulate this sort of thing?

I guess u need -

1. Three different dumps of the vocal
2. Gate each one to a different peak level
3. Reverb each seperately to small--medium--large room types
4. Mix judiciously back against the original vocal track

That's the only way I can think of doing it.........

But then the other set of articles I have been reading echo in my ears and I worry about -

1. Phase Issues - If it's the same vocal track won't the "same bits" of all four tracks create one of those weird temporal distortions, phase anomalies or some other weird situation requiring teleportation, an android and a high-ranking Star Fleet officer to fix?

2. Is there a magical button in Sonar that I haven't discovered that u r all laughing about now?

3. Have I discovered a reason to finally go out and buy a really cool mixer?

4. Is my penis really big enough and am I really hitting her g-spot or is she faking it?

Thanks for listening........ So long, and thanks for all the fish -

Q.

 

[James Argo]

Q...

You brought tears to my eyes, LOL!!

Can you wrote your problem in three words ?

I don't get it



Doh!!! That's why you didn't ask me for help anyway... Jamal... Jamal who

 

[Qwerty]

After this many beers you expect lucidity?

There is no real, problem, I just wanted some input or perspective from someone who has a clue using this program on how to approach the stuff above..........

As for Jamal - that bastard has been haunting me for years.

Q.

 

[Qwerty]

Or how about this..........

It was a dark and stormy night.....<err, No>

1. Does Sonar 2.2 XL have a compressor with "ducking" capacity?
2. Can u find a better way of doing the Bowie thing -- CPU and project capacity wise -- that is better than that above.

BTW - Jamal may also have been an attempt at writing James.... or maybe I should just repost the entire thread to every single forum titled "JAMES -- HELP ME!!!".......

Is that summary any more useful?

Ciao,

Q.

P.S. (Do those emails about making ur cock bigger really work?)

 

[James Argo]

That's better explanation, my friend

Unfortunetelly, I'm on the road by now durring short tour. So I can't reach my DAW to find it out for you by now. I never used this side chain technic before. I'm not sure if it's SONAR or Plugins job to handle this issue. I'm sure very soon, our beloved Almighty Dachay2tnr, moskus, acidrock, etc will probably give you better hints. It's a very good question indeed. I'm learning here beside you on this subject...

Thanks

Jaymz





P.S. (Have you put "it" in warm Jasmine tea half hour before "stage" ? It works most of the time.. )

 

[moskus]

Re: Or how about this..........

It was a dark and stormy night.....<err, No>

1. Does Sonar 2.2 XL have a compressor with "ducking" capacity?
2. Can u find a better way of doing the Bowie thing -- CPU and project capacity wise -- that is better than that above.

1. No, I don't think so.

2. You can try the "Skidder". It's a free VST from DestroyFX, but I'm not shure if that's what you're after. I've used the Skidder on the guitars on this song.


And you do have problems with your sexual life, but I don't need to know about them...

 

[Qwerty]

Remembers why drunk posting doesn't make sense.......

2. You can try the "Skidder". It's a free VST from DestroyFX, but I'm not shure if that's what you're after. I've used the Skidder on the guitars on this song.

Hi Mr Kus - Can I call u Mos?

Nice track - love the bass line, loved the filter into and out of the distorted sound on it. Very cool.

What the hell is the sample vocal saying? I know I have a potty mouth and a dirty mind, but it sounded to me like "You Can't......"

Thanks for the tips,

Q.

P.S. If u want to see a funny movie check out Hedwig and the Angry Inch. One of the best lines in the movie is where she talks about her thesis on the male domination of German philosophy and says she called it "You Kant, Always Get What You Want".....

 

[tigerbomb]

How the hell do I accomplish that in Sonar XL?? Don't see no "side-chain" or "duck" options anywhere in the included plug-ins........

There's no built-in side chain or ducking capability in Sonar itself, and none of the plugins that comes with Sonar has such capability that I'm aware of.

db-Audioware (http://www.db-audioware.com) sells compressors that has sidechain/ducking capabilities. It's a bit awkward to set up, but it works really well. I often use it to pump up the bass track a dB or two on kick hits.

No associations with these guys, just a happy customer.

 

[Qwerty]

Thank you, Tigerbomb. Newbies rule!

Q.

 

[moskus]

Re: Remembers why drunk posting doesn't make sense.......

What the hell is the sample vocal saying? I know I have a potty mouth and a dirty mind, but it sounded to me like "You Can't......"

It's says "RUKA" wich was the name of the show the track was promoting.

And "sample vocal"? I cang it myself!

 

[Qwerty]

Either way - it really pumps, the lads and I have been playing it about five or six times today. Love the flangey/phasery thing on the hi-hats in the break, uber-sexy indeed!

You're the man.

Cya,

Q.

 

[moskus]

Either way - it really pumps, the lads and I have been playing it about five or six times today. Love the flangey/phasery thing on the hi-hats in the break, uber-sexy indeed!

You're the man.

Thanks! Nice to hear that some people like the music I make! Thank you again!

Tell the "lads" is said "Hi and thanks"!

You made my day!

 

[mixsit]

There is another way to duck with any normal comp... but you're probably not going to like it...

Mix the primary track (the one you want to feature) out in front of the track(s) you want to quack..er..duck. Then set the comp so that it's idle except when the primary track kicks in, then the comp pulls both back down in volume, with the featured track sitting on top.

Wayne

 

[James Argo]

There is another way to duck with any normal comp... but you're probably not going to like it...

Mix the primary track (the one you want to feature) out in front of the track(s) you want to quack..er..duck. Then set the comp so that it's idle except when the primary track kicks in, then the comp pulls both back down in volume, with the featured track sitting on top.

Wayne

Make my sense I can't wait to try until I go back home. BTW, what plugins do you use for compression, mixsit ?


Jaymz

 

[mixsit]

Flip the logic about a bit, it should work on an expander/gate I expect.
I like the UltraFunk comp (and especially the limiter for evening out drum spikes) and the Timeworks. That all I have in software.

Wayne

 

[Qwerty]

Then set the comp so that it's idle except when the primary track kicks in
Wayne

Hi Wayne,

This part of the process is what I don't know how to do. How do I tell the sub-mix compressor to look at the vocal track and activate off that?

Cya,

Q.

 

[mixsit]

Hi Wayne,
This part of the process is what I don't know how to do. How do I tell the sub-mix compressor to look at the vocal track and activate off that?
Cya,
Q.

Yea, I was thinking this might be a neat branch-off to get into.
Actually, this sort of happens anytime you put a compressor on a mix. Just like on a solo track, the threshold, speed controls and to some extent the detector's eq-voicing, determine when the comp kicks in -on the loudest parts generally.
One way would be to start with the tracks evenly mixed, turn the treshold down untill it just starts compressing, then if you raise the volume of one (or more) of the tracks, the comp would start pulling down.
Relative volume of the tracks, compression ratio and control speed would work like always to say how much 'solo' effect.
I like looking at how the compressor on a mix is reacting to the mix, going back and forth into bypass to see what's hitting and how it might be changing the balences, the tempo effects of the dips it's making vs the song. Music geaky heaven yea sure.
So damned many options...
Wayne

Yea, anyone happen to check out the wild compression on some of the TV basketball playoffs? The commentators duck the crowd noise, but the crowd noise sounds like it was being ripped and shreaded by heavy pumping. Reminded me of the perfect high intensity metal thrash rock effect. It couldn't sound any louder than that.

 

[Qwerty]

OK - I understand what u r getting at mixsit - I guess I was attempting to bypass that manual fiddling to find the levels. Looks as though some compressors like the one tigerbomb mentioned above, actually allow u to side-chain off to a source input track, specify an activation threshold and then work off those peaks, not the track actually being compressed. I guess anything I can make automatic.......

Yep - more damn laziness in action! Thanks for the thoughts though - even that is an interesting compression methodology.

Cya,

Q.

 

[fishtop_records]

Re: Or how about this..........

It was a dark and stormy night.....<err, No>

1. Does Sonar 2.2 XL have a compressor with "ducking" capacity?
2. Can u find a better way of doing the Bowie thing -- CPU and project capacity wise -- that is better than that above.

1) Yes it really can do ducking. It is weakly documented,
and kinda limited, but it does work. You need to create
a mono mix that you want to be the ducking key.
And a second mono mix that you want ducked.

You feed them both to an Aux bus, put the Sonar compressor
on it, and down in the lower left is "sidechain" control.
Which you have to select. I don't remember if the duckee
goes on the left and the ducker on the right, or vice versa.

2) The easy way to do ducking is to buy the db-audioware
compressors, they are cheap, easy to set up and work.

3) the classic bowie gated mic for reverb approach can be done
easily if you record using three or four spaced mics.
Or you can probably kludge up something with cloned tracks
delayed the right amount.

 

[Porter]

I think this is something like what fishtop_records is getting into... (now I haven't tried this but the logic sounds right to me)

This will only work with a MONO track.
1. Duplicate the track you want to be the trigger and off-set it say 5ms (or what ever will work, just so you don't destroy the original).
2. Set up the compressor in one of the AUX Busses.
3. Pan one track fully left and the other fully right.
4. Set the track levels and send the output of the AUX Bus to a stereo track (which you will split later)
5. Bounce down to a new track (or can u do it to separate tracks? I'm currently at work and can't test this)

Now, in theory, the vocal track will trigger the compressor on the backgroud track. The down side of this is that it won't work on a stereo backing mix.

Does any of that sound possible?

Porter