headphones for mixing

[dolecekq]

i know im going to get a bunch of crap for this. but i cant afford monitors. i have aome behringer ms40 but they just color the sou.d way to much. so i need suggestions for the best headphones i can get for mixing

 

[GONZO-X]

the headphones you would need to accurately mix, would be more expensive than some entry-level monitors.

 

[Massive Master]

The headphones you'd need to accurately mix don't even exist.

 

[Bobbsy]

Massive Master (and Gonzo-X) are both correct.

The physics of sound and physiology of the human body work against you. Sound and your hearing behave differently with headphones clamped against your skull than with soundwaves travelling through open air. This means that mixes done on headphones will always sound different from the same mix played on speakers.

You CAN learn to work around this. Do a mix on headphones, burn it to CD, then play it back on a variety of other systems--in your car, on your home stereo, on your friends stereo, etc. etc. Analyse how it sounds different then go back and try your mix again making the changes you think you need. Do another trial mix, burn another CD and do the same listening test. You'll eventually learn what things have to sound like in your headphones to sound right on a variety of other systems.

Frankly, even with the best monitor speakers you still have to go through some of this but the differences will be more subtle and the learning curve easier.

But, as Gonzo-X points out, a good set of headphones will probably cost as much as entry level monitors--and the monitors (even cheap ones) will probably make learning your sound easier.

 

[Anders_Ong]

Yea. Bobbsy is right about the workaround with headphones. It is just going to be damn tedious running about testing your mix on any systems you can find; and sadly most of us do not have the luxury of time.

Get a decent monitor speakers comfortable for your budget. Hell, even the kurzweil entrys' are better than most headphones you get at the similar price. It is easier to hear the frequency response of your mix and how it reacts in a room. Don't leave the room out of the equation =)

 

[Jonesey9]

When you're listening on monitors, a little bit of what leaves the left speaker arrives at your right ear, but a little bit delayed, and vice versa for the right speaker/left ear.

All of these subtle interplays are totally lost when mixing on phones.

I use them to check my tracks for unwanted material but never for mixing.

 

[RecordingMaster]

My buddy is at OIART (Ontario Institute of Audio Recording Technology) right now, just starting the 11 month course. Apparently it's a pretty well-respected recording school in North America. They all just got some new Fostex headphones paid for by part of their tuition fees.

This buddy (who is actually on these boards as of late) has always mixed on headphones since he has not been able to afford monitors. That, and he still lives with his parents, and he doesn't want to disturb them / has no acoustic treatment. Here's what I hate...he always said things like "These are Shure headphones with extremely flat freq response and high accuracy, etc). I always say "Yeah but it's bad practice to mix on headphones, it's not natural, the waveforms don't have a chance to develop before they hit your ears, etc". Then he'll say "Yeah but that's how a large majority of people are going to be listening to your stuff anyways." And then I'm always "Yeah, but, oh forget it, you don't understand".

So now that he's in school I told him to go and ask his professor about so he can finally hear it from a professional in the industry. The professor tells him in return "It's fine for the initial stages of mixing, but you should always check on monitors before you finish it". I hate this. I know 2-3 other people that have graduated from that school or MIA (also in London Ontario) that still wear headphones since graduating. That's become their comfort zone now (and I guess the school only reinforced that!), and they still use them all the time. Hell even their profile pictures online show them wearing headphones. I recorded at a local studio and the engineer was one of these graduates. He was wearing headphones the whole time, even though there were a set of monitors right there in the control room.


I know these students are given headphones to use for in-class work and such, as well as to not bother their roommates back at the dorm, but still. They just get way too used to it and way too comfortable.

The whole thing really grinds my gears.

I'm almost scared to keep the headphones on for more than a couple minutes at a time, and make too many adjustments, while mixing.

 

[GONZO-X]

HERE'S SOMETHING NEW, IF YOU INSIST:

http://africa-middle-east.beyerdynamic.com/custom/index.php?content=custom_one_pro#offer2

 

[sixer2007]

Both of these articles are very worth your time if you insist on mixing with phones. I'm about to leave the country to live in Japan for a year. I have no choice but to go the phones route for the time being. These articles were enlightening and I plan to make good use of their advice.

Mixing On Headphones
Mixing On Headphones

(2 different SOS articles! Same title)

 

[guitarded2]

all of these guys are without a doubt more experienced than I am. But I have to say I had the hardest time mixing on my cheap mackie monitors and one day running it out to the car and back only to find that no matter what I did it just wasn't coming out right. So I popped on my cheap 30 dollar headphones and opened up a graphic analyzer (to supervise the low end that I couldn't hear) and gave it a go. I then played it through the monitors made a few minor adjustments to the low end then popped it in the car and was pleased with results. Next day I ordered Sennheiser HD380s haven't looked back since. For my circumstance its perfect (don't have treated room, noise is a big issue, and of course $$$$.

So to answer your question from a home recordist/hobbyist I'm mixing in Sennheiser HD380s despite what I've learned and been told online but hell idk why but its working pretty well so far. You should always test your mixes on multiple sources even if you have pro monitors.

Sorry I really wanted to answer your question since it seems like no one else had any intention of doing so. Ok now flame me.

 

[kcearl]

Im in an apartment so I use headphones a lot more than I like...Id say that even if you get the cheapest of nearfields at least youve got something to check back on, even an older high quality hifi...

If I mix late at night often, when I shouldn't bother, as 9/10 times when I check it back on my monitors in the morning I have to undo most of it. Cans are great for detail and tracking, I wouldnt trust a full mix. I use some pretty budget ATH's and they do for a lot of stuff, just ordering a pair of beyerdynamic 770 pro's as Im about to start a bit of traveling, and wont have any speakers...

 

[RAMI]

Sorry I really wanted to answer your question since it seems like no one else had any intention of doing so. Ok now flame me.

No flaming, but everyone DID answer his question. They just didn't answer what you (and probably the OP) wanted to hear.

You should always test your mixes on multiple sources even if you have pro monitors.

That's debatable. If you trust your room and monitoring system, you don't have to run around listening to it on everything else.

In your case, you're saying headphones are better than monitors because you don't have a treated room. While you might be right, you're "curing" a bigger problem with a better-than-nothing solution. There's is absolutely no question about the fact that monitors in a treated room are better for mixing than headphones in an un-treated room. It's like saying "I don't need good breaks because my car doesn't go over 10 miles an hour". Yea, shitty breaks are better than no breaks, but maybe you should fix your car so that you will need good breaks? (That might be the worst analogy ever, but it's all I got )


If you're using "analyzers" to tell you what your ears should be telling you, I don't think you're in the position to tell someone that headphones are fine for mixing. You can use those "analyzers" with shitty speakers too, since you're only looking for information, as opposed to listening for it.

 

[grimtraveller]

That might be the worst analogy ever, but it's all I got

I'm not sure I'd call it the worst analogy ever. I thought it made abundant sense, actually.
I believe that a person can mix on headphones - but not just like that. It's not simply a case of just do it. It takes time, much like mixing with speakers or monitors. There's a learning curve that's tricky because one has the added burden of having to persevere through deception, constantly having to hear differently to what you're actually hearing and translate in one's mind. Also, not just anyone can do it. But like anything, it's possible. Or perhaps a better way to put it is that it's not impossible. If it's true that phones are good for checking certain details and things, that alone means that it's at least possible.
But not necesarilly desirable.
To the OP, I'd say become acquainted with both monitors and phones.

 

[guitarded2]

No flaming, but everyone DID answer his question. They just didn't answer what you (and probably the OP) wanted to hear.

That's debatable. If you trust your room and monitoring system, you don't have to run around listening to it on everything else.

In your case, you're saying headphones are better than monitors because you don't have a treated room. While you might be right, you're "curing" a bigger problem with a better-than-nothing solution. There's is absolutely no question about the fact that monitors in a treated room are better for mixing than headphones in an un-treated room. It's like saying "I don't need good breaks because my car doesn't go over 10 miles an hour". Yea, shitty breaks are better than no breaks, but maybe you should fix your car so that you will need good breaks? (That might be the worst analogy ever, but it's all I got )


If you're using "analyzers" to tell you what your ears should be telling you, I don't think you're in the position to tell someone that headphones are fine for mixing. You can use those "analyzers" with shitty speakers too, since you're only looking for information, as opposed to listening for it.

I've never heard of a studio mastering or otherwise that didn't use more than one pair of monitors. And no I'm not saying they are better I'm saying that they are usable in my specific situation. I was under the impression he wanted to know of some headphones he could invest in for mixing. I didn't see anyone shouting out any brands. All I heard was don't do it. The point of the analyzer is simple I can't hear the bass because of my acoustics/headphones so on the analyzer I can get a visual representation of my blind spot. You're taking a lot of what I'm saying out of context. I believe he said he already had a pair of monitors that he didn't like so I wasn't recommending a replacement I was simply answering the question.

Ok so if I ask you which ford truck i should buy I'd hope to hear F-150 or Ranger not "don't buy a ford." If you don't use headphones for mixing why even bother responding.

 

[RAMI]

I've never heard of a studio mastering or otherwise that didn't use more than one pair of monitors.

More than one pair of monitors in their studio, yes. Testing out their mixes on "ghetto blasters" and car steros, no.

I didn't see anyone shouting out any brands.

That's because they were trying to help him.

All I heard was don't do it.

That's because they were trying to help him.

The point of the analyzer is simple I can't hear the bass

The point I was making making is simole. This is why you shouldn't be mixing with headphones.

on the analyzer I can get a visual representation of my blind spot.

A visual representation f your blind spot. Is that like an aural representation of your deaf spot? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

You're taking a lot of what I'm saying out of context.

No, I'm just quoting and answering you.

I was simply answering the question.

That's cool. So was I and everyone else.

 

[guitarded2]

More than one pair of monitors in their studio, yes. Testing out their mixes on "ghetto blasters" and car steros, no.
That's because they were trying to help him. That's because they were trying to help him.

The point I was making making is simole. This is why you shouldn't be mixing with headphones. A visual representation f your blind spot. Is that like an aural representation of your deaf spot? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

No, I'm just quoting and answering you.

That's cool. So was I and everyone else.

eh whatever to each his own. however if you do some research you will find that some professionals do use headphones for mixing. Alright Im out its friday night

 

[sixer2007]

So little story just cause... Dave Pensado held a mix contest on his show. Hundreds of people entered and all the top three mixes sounds pretty phenomenal. he listened to every mix himself, and finally picked the winner. A couple weeks later he had a little interview segment with the winner and asked what monitors the guy used and if there was outboard gear involved. The dude did it on a laptop, with headphones, all ITB. Great mixes can come from headphones if you know them well.

 

[rayc]

Headphone mixing isn't great.
It should be avoided if possible.
I use headphones when tracking and for listening to bits in details.
I use a variety of head sets but the best pair I have is a pair of Senheisser HD515s.
Not great but goodish.
I've done partial mixes with them when working away from my recording space. THose mixes always need significant revision in a room.
My recording/mixing space isn't treated but I've learnt the room, in combination with a cheap set of monitors (cheaper than the Sen's).
I've "treated" the room by arranging book shelves, soft furnishing, heavy curtains etc to address what I could.
The mixing is MUCH better than when I relied on old stereo speakers &/or headphones.
Cheap to semi OK monitors are def. cheaper than good headphones.
Cheapish monitors are better than headphones IF you learn the room etc by using reference recordings etc and spend the time to sort it out.
Just have a squiz at the headphones out there and their bass response etc ratings and you'll quickly discover that beyond the lack of air moving/ sounds blending less stark panning that a room will present most headphones are a long, long way from the "flat" response you would want for mixing.
Use what you have or can afford but expect that eventually you'll want/need to upgrade as the readies become available.
If I was asked to recommend a model from a specific brand but believed the brand to be no good I'd obviously say NO to the brand. That just being honest.
Here are some reviews of a very good $200 + pair of closed back headphones so you can read the issues that h/phone bring just in relation to bass. There's a space between diff reviews.

The sound quality: Is good, it does have a lot of bass, but not too much and it is tight. I like the mids, and the highs are crisp but sometimes a bit harsh (siblance). The harshness of highs is something that is very common in closed headphones, probably because all of the sound is directed into the ear.

Pros: Thumping bass, you can throw them down a hill so very durable etc..
Cons: Don't like its mids, some might think its clamping force is too high, need lots of burn in
I'm still burning them in so I'll give you a longer review after 100hrs.

You may read about is the recessed mid-levels on this headphone. This is true, which is why this is not an excellent pick for rich instrumental or voice detail. Additionally, there can be some sort of irritating siblance going on at high frequencies, but this occurs with all closed-can headphones as far as I know to varying degrees.

A bass lover's phone for sure. Can be fun with the right music. But the bass is of the one-note "whump" variety and that gets boring

Tonal accuracy is very good. I am using as a reference my home theater with Sunfire XT ribbon hybrids and Bag End professional mastering subwoofers. The all important mid-high region is spot on. Bass is slightly emphasized, true, but the degree is exaggerated IMO.

a fairly dark sound with an incredible bass response. Each bass note booms giving somewhat an emphasised sound, though not over the top, but it could be a loose for some taste

Pros: Sound quality, Isolation, Soundstage, comfort
Cons: Siblance, floppy bass

A few things in this area would be sibilance (I think it's called) where the higher sss sounds, sound like they were encoded at 64kbps or something. While this isn't hugely noticeable, it can get annoying if you really listen for it. Another thing would be driver distortion, sometimes the driver can get contaminates on it which can ruin the lower frequencies.

 

[Bobbsy]

You can mix how ever you have to. I've mixed (admittedly just news stories) on headphones while wearing a "nuclear and biological combat" suit and gas mask. I've also mixed in proper audio dubbing suites with acoustics designed by Sandy Brown Associates and equipped with large studio monitors worth more than my whole home set up. I've also mixed on everything in between.

It's far easier on studio monitors but, as I went through earlier, with practice and "ear training" you can mix on almost anything. Indeed, even with the really good stuff I mentioned above, there was a period of getting used to the sound. That's why so many of us recommend getting monitors--it's not that headphone mixing is impossible; it just takes more effort. Also, as has been pointed out previously, a good set of headphones can cost as much as or more than some decent entry level monitors.

Finally, just a note on some comments earlier: professional mixing suites generally do have a choice of two of three sets of monitors. In our main TV suites, the norm was a set of large pro monitors, a set of nearfield monitors and usually a TV monitor with built in tinny speaker to check how that sounds. On top of all that, with advent of 5.1 surround, there was also a set of good (but domestic) surround monitors for checking THAT as well. It's bad practice to base your whole mix on one set of even the best monitors. Indeed, I was in a debate with a friend at the BBC last year when there were numerous complaints about the audio on a series...turned out they'd only listened in 5.1 and hadn't checked for mono/simple stereo compatibility. There were red faces and angry memos.

 

[jaynm26]

But what if I just want to Master on them. Whats the best head phones to master on?