Have drums...now what ???

[heatmiser]

Hey - long time guitarist/recording hobbiest here with little experience with real drums. I've always used drum machines and/or loops. I just got an acoustic kit on a long term loan from a friend of my wife's. Probably nicer than one I would've bought, so I'm pretty psyched. It is a Yamaha Rybdeen set which is likely a beginner model, but it sounds, plays and looks decent and the hardware is really solid. Oddly, it came only with sabian HHs and a huge Sabian ride, but no crash?

Anyway, a few noob questions if you don't mind...

The kit wasn't used for the last year and to me, it sounds overly resonant and maybe a little flabby - particularly the kick. I've been reading about tuning drums and, to a non drummer, it sounds pretty freakin's complicated. One site said to dedicate 3 hours per drum! Anyway, not my kit, so am I risking damage by tightening the heads if I'm not 100% sure what I'm doing?

The kick has both heads on it and to me, the beater or whatever has too much bounce to it and the sound is too resonant. Is that a function of having both heads on there with no holes or baffles?

I want to record them at some point here, but probably need to buy some mic(s) to even get close to a decent sound. I will of course experiment, but wondered if you had any ideas 1st? I have an sm57 which I thought I'd put on the snare. But beyond that, I only have an AKG D 3700 (which is like an sm58 sorta, but with a more scooped sound) which I thought I'd try on the kick. Good kick mics look expensive!

I only have one condensor, so trying a kick, snare plus one room mic isn't likely to get me a very big sound, is it? Any ideas on a very cheap pair of overheads that might sound half way decent?

Sorry for the long post - I have a zillion other questions but will stop here and continue my research. Thanks!

 

[squibble94]

Ahhh Heatmiser's movin' up in the world.

I am no Rami, Greg, or Dewhitt when it comes to drums, but I know the basics from reading a whole shitload on it. For the resonance, is the kick muffled at all? If not just shove a towel in the drum and rest it against the beater and resonant head. Some people like to take 50 comforters and pillows and pack their kick with them to get a "tight, punchy sound." That sound can be achieved by using as much dampening as needed, and proper tuning. I recommend the videos by Bob Gatzen. They are on youtube. Tuning actually can change the feel of a drum a lot. If the heads haven't been changed in a while, you may want to ask your wife's friend if you can do that. Yes, you can damage a head by over tightening. Once again, Bob Gatzen talks about using the lowest tuning possible. This will ensure that the head will not be over tightened.

I know drums don't necessarily have to be in stereo, but I prefer them to be. I'm sure you can get quite usable sounds with a room, snare, and kick. Try it before you go spending money on something you might not need.

As far as overhead mics go, I've heard great things about Studio Projects B1's, MXL 603's, and Samson CO2's. Keep in mind these are the cheapos. I'm sure you know the whole schbeil: Get the best sound you can at the source. Mess with mic placement until it sounds good. A great kick mic in the $100ish range is the Shure PG52.

Just curious, how are you at playing drums?

 

[heatmiser]

Thanks for the info squibble! I will definitely check out Bob Gatzen - thanks.

The kick is not muffled at all and both heads are on and there are no holes in the resonant head, so I'd have to remove it to place baffles. I think I'll see what sort of sounds I can get without muffling first.

The heads do not appear to be worn at all. I don't think this chick played them much. They have almost no visible wear. Just kinda loose from what I can tell. The toms ring out like forever and the kick does too. The snare has aquarian coated heads as does the smaller tom. The two larger toms have clear aquarian heads and the kick appears to have remo heads.

The one condensor I have is a SP B1 actually. I really like it. It is my vocal/hand percussion mic and I thought about getting a 2nd one for overheads, but then I lose the room mic. I thought maybe I should get a matched pair of SDCs?

I want a room mic as I plan to blend this in to the mix rather than using digital reverb. The kit is in my garage which is fairly large and has a nice sound to it I think.

As for my playing, hopefully you will hear for yourself soon enough. I have a total of about 10 hours playing drums under my belt in my life, but I have a good sense of rythym and I think I know my limits, so I plan to keep it simple. I really enjoy it though and respect the work that must go into becoming good at it. I think you really have to be more precise than with the guitar or bass if you don't want to stand out as sounding bad with percussion.

 

[squibble94]

Thanks for the info squibble! I will definitely check out Bob Gatzen - thanks.

The kick is not muffled at all and both heads are on and there are no holes in the resonant head, so I'd have to remove it to place baffles. I think I'll see what sort of sounds I can get without muffling first.

The heads do not appear to be worn at all. I don't think this chick played them much. They have almost no visible wear. Just kinda loose from what I can tell. The toms ring out like forever and the kick does too. The snare has aquarian coated heads as does the smaller tom. The two larger toms have clear aquarian heads and the kick appears to have remo heads.

The one condensor I have is a SP B1 actually. I really like it. It is my vocal/hand percussion mic and I thought about getting a 2nd one for overheads, but then I lose the room mic. I thought maybe I should get a matched pair of SDCs?

I want a room mic as I plan to blend this in to the mix rather than using digital reverb. The kit is in my garage which is fairly large and has a nice sound to it I think.

As for my playing, hopefully you will hear for yourself soon enough. I have a total of about 10 hours playing drums under my belt in my life, but I have a good sense of rythym and I think I know my limits, so I plan to keep it simple. I really enjoy it though and respect the work that must go into becoming good at it. I think you really have to be more precise than with the guitar or bass if you don't want to stand out as sounding bad with percussion.

I hope the kick tuning goes well. I always have trouble tuning that drum. The other 2 mic sets are both SDC's and they sound pretty good. You can even try the ultra cheap overheads from CAD.

CAD CM217 Condenser Mic - Buy One, Get One FREE!!! and more Condenser Microphones at GuitarCenter.com.

Greg uses these. To me they sound a tad shrill, but they are definitely usable. Good luck on your recording!

 

[Greg_L]

The kit wasn't used for the last year and to me, it sounds overly resonant and maybe a little flabby - particularly the kick. I've been reading about tuning drums and, to a non drummer, it sounds pretty freakin's complicated. One site said to dedicate 3 hours per drum! Anyway, not my kit, so am I risking damage by tightening the heads if I'm not 100% sure what I'm doing?

Keep in mind that resonance is what gives drums their musical tone. Otherwise you might as well just hit some buckets. Most of that resonance hides in a full mix, but without it the drums will sound dead and lifeless. Having said that, if they sound "flabby" then they're probably tuned poorly. 3 hours per drum is excessive, but plan on spending some quality time with the whole kit. It's not as quick and easy as tuning a guitar. Without writing a book about it, remove the batter head, start with the bottom head and tune it to it's lowest, cleanest, and most resonant pitch. Tap the head about an inch in around each lug and listen for the overtones. They should all be the same pitch. You might need to clean and lube the lugs. If everything is right, small turns at each lug yield big results. It's not uncommon with good hardware to have 1/8 of a turn make a difference. Now reinstall and do the same to the top head. set the drum on a towel or something to mute the bottom head while you do the top. Look for the lowest, cleanest, most resonant tone. Once you've got both heads tuned to their fundamental pitch, fine tune the top and bottom head to get the rebound and pitch you want. Don't force the drum to sound like something it can't. A 10 inch tom will never sound like a floor tom, and vice-versa. I like a tighter bottom head compared to the top head. You get a nice pitch bend sound like that. Both heads the same gives you a big booming sound. Tighter top head gives a deader sound with more attack. Clear heads are usually brighter with more overtones, coated heads are usually warmer sounding. Single-ply heads ring, double-ply heads are flatter and drier.

The kick has both heads on it and to me, the beater or whatever has too much bounce to it and the sound is too resonant. Is that a function of having both heads on there with no holes or baffles?

It depends on the size of the kick, the beater, and the heads. Both heads tuned tight with no port hole or muffling will be bouncy and boomy. If you want a flatter thud for recording without cutting a hole in the reso head, just take the front head off completely and put a small pillow in there just barely touching the batter head. Tune the kick batter the same way as the toms - maybe even looser. I tune my kick just barely past finger tight. Just enough to get the wrinkles out of the head.

I want to record them at some point here, but probably need to buy some mic(s) to even get close to a decent sound. I will of course experiment, but wondered if you had any ideas 1st? I have an sm57 which I thought I'd put on the snare. But beyond that, I only have an AKG D 3700 (which is like an sm58 sorta, but with a more scooped sound) which I thought I'd try on the kick. Good kick mics look expensive!

I only have one condensor, so trying a kick, snare plus one room mic isn't likely to get me a very big sound, is it? Any ideas on a very cheap pair of overheads that might sound half way decent?

The 57 is the most common mic for snares. It'll be fine. Your AKG isn't an ideal kick mic, but it'll work with good EQ'ing. The one condenser can work as an overhead. If you choose to use just the one, don't use it as a room mic. Use it as an overhead. Play with the positioning so you get the toms clearly and the cymbals don't overload it. I personally rather stereo overheads. Just look on Musician Friend for matched condensers in the price you wanna pay. If you go the two overhead route, make sure you take the time to set em up correctly. Out of phase overheads sound sucky. And of course, your room is gonna play a huge role in the sound. Get the kit out into the open as much as you can. No corners, if you can help it. I'd recommend forgetting the room mic idea unless the room is really good.

 

[FunkDaddy]

Some great advice already given. In the same vein as what Greg said regarding the resonance of the drums usually disappearing in a mix (but affecting the drum sound quite a bit if it isn't there) What you are hearing in the room and what would be on tape can be very different. I was amazed at the difference between what I heard when tracking and what ended up on the demo when my band recorded way back when. Obviously this applies to all instruments given the plugins/effects you can slap on something, but it's a good thing to keep in mind.

 

[Greg_L]

Like everything else, drums are very sensitive to mic positioning. Maybe even moreso than everything else. Changing the angle of a snare or tom mic or moving it in or out and inch can make huge differences in sound that can't always be fixed with EQ. If you get a bad snare sound on tape, you're usually stuck with that shit. Toms and kicks are more forgiving, but it's still important. Plan on spending some time finding the sweet spots.

 

[squibble94]

Yep. It's all about the source sound.

 

[heatmiser]

...you might as well just hit some buckets.

I have actually tried that, and it isn't pretty!

Most of that resonance hides in a full mix, but without it the drums will sound dead and lifeless. Having said that, if they sound "flabby" then they're probably tuned poorly. 3 hours per drum is excessive, but plan on spending some quality time with the whole kit. It's not as quick and easy as tuning a guitar. Without writing a book about it, remove the batter head, start with the bottom head and tune it to it's lowest, cleanest, and most resonant pitch. Tap the head about an inch in around each lug and listen for the overtones. They should all be the same pitch. You might need to clean and lube the lugs. If everything is right, small turns at each lug yield big results. It's not uncommon with good hardware to have 1/8 of a turn make a difference. Now reinstall and do the same to the top head. set the drum on a towel or something to mute the bottom head while you do the top. Look for the lowest, cleanest, most resonant tone. Once you've got both heads tuned to their fundamental pitch, fine tune the top and bottom head to get the rebound and pitch you want. Don't force the drum to sound like something it can't. A 10 inch tom will never sound like a floor tom, and vice-versa. I like a tighter bottom head compared to the top head. You get a nice pitch bend sound like that. Both heads the same gives you a big booming sound. Tighter top head gives a deader sound with more attack. Clear heads are usually brighter with more overtones, coated heads are usually warmer sounding. Single-ply heads ring, double-ply heads are flatter and drier.

This is good stuff Greg, thanks! This reinforces what I'd been reading and seeing on youtube, but actually in more plain language that makes it easier for me to digest. A little less intimidating. I am still not entirely confident I will recognize the drums' fundamental pitch (never thought of drums having pitch before), but I can take a stab at it and as long as I don't go too crazy, her drums shouldn't be harmed.

It depends on the size of the kick, the beater, and the heads. Both heads tuned tight with no port hole or muffling will be bouncy and boomy. If you want a flatter thud for recording without cutting a hole in the reso head, just take the front head off completely and put a small pillow in there just barely touching the batter head. Tune the kick batter the same way as the toms - maybe even looser. I tune my kick just barely past finger tight. Just enough to get the wrinkles out of the head.

This is good stuff too. Most people seem to have a hole in there somewhere to get the mic in if nothing else. Even if I do as you suggest, I'm guessing mic position will be crucial in terms of the actual recorded sound I get here. Not sure where I'll put the mic if not in the drum, but I will try everything I can think of and see what works best

The 57 is the most common mic for snares. It'll be fine. Your AKG isn't an ideal kick mic, but it'll work with good EQ'ing. The one condenser can work as an overhead. If you choose to use just the one, don't use it as a room mic. Use it as an overhead. Play with the positioning so you get the toms clearly and the cymbals don't overload it. I personally rather stereo overheads. Just look on Musician Friend for matched condensers in the price you wanna pay. If you go the two overhead route, make sure you take the time to set em up correctly. Out of phase overheads sound sucky. And of course, your room is gonna play a huge role in the sound. Get the kit out into the open as much as you can. No corners, if you can help it. I'd recommend forgetting the room mic idea unless the room is really good.

Cool, I absolutely want stereo, but may try a single overhead 1st just in case before I buy anything. If I buy a new pair, I could always set up a room mic and see how it sounds...if garbage, I simply don't mix it in. The garage actually sounds really good to me, but I can't imagine it would qualify as a "really good" room unless I happened to be very lucky. Do you use the CAD SDCs squibble linked to? They are super cheap!

I have read your drum sticky thread and also read about glynn johns and recorderman methods, so when the time comes, I will be careful with positioning. Thanks so much! Really helpful stuff as always Greg.

 

[heatmiser]

Some great advice already given. In the same vein as what Greg said regarding the resonance of the drums usually disappearing in a mix (but affecting the drum sound quite a bit if it isn't there) What you are hearing in the room and what would be on tape can be very different. I was amazed at the difference between what I heard when tracking and what ended up on the demo when my band recorded way back when. Obviously this applies to all instruments given the plugins/effects you can slap on something, but it's a good thing to keep in mind.

Thanks Daddy. Good thoughts. I am anxious to set up some mics and see what sounds I can get. I will keep this in mind since, as when micing a guitar amp, my ears aren't exactly where the mic is, so it will inevitably sound different recorded than it does to me now live.

Like everything else, drums are very sensitive to mic positioning. Maybe even moreso than everything else. Changing the angle of a snare or tom mic or moving it in or out and inch can make huge differences in sound that can't always be fixed with EQ. If you get a bad snare sound on tape, you're usually stuck with that shit. Toms and kicks are more forgiving, but it's still important. Plan on spending some time finding the sweet spots.

Got it (I think). Semi-standard for the snare is 2-3" above the rim pointed slightly downward toward the center, right? The height and angle probably changes the tone from bright to warm I'm guessing...I know, I'll have to see for myself!

I hope the kick tuning goes well. I always have trouble tuning that drum. The other 2 mic sets are both SDC's and they sound pretty good. You can even try the ultra cheap overheads from CAD.

CAD CM217 Condenser Mic - Buy One, Get One FREE!!! and more Condenser Microphones at GuitarCenter.com.

Greg uses these. To me they sound a tad shrill, but they are definitely usable. Good luck on your recording!

Thanks again squibble - those are amazingly cheap! Not too much to lose if they don't work out. From my work with multi-track loops, the overheads are a huge part of the sound of the kit and even the whole tune, so I feel like I'm gonna need to invest something if I want to take this even semi-seriously. I may get these simply for the price. All the ones I think I want are super expensive...

 

[Greg_L]

Got it (I think). Semi-standard for the snare is 2-3" above the rim pointed slightly downward toward the center, right? The height and angle probably changes the tone from bright to warm I'm guessing...I know, I'll have to see for myself!
...

Pointed more towards the center yields a duller, more focused sound. Less snap, more thud. If you're getting quality snare sound from your overheads, aiming the snare mic towards the center can fatten the overall snare track with good results. If your overheads tracks aren't quite lively, you're gonna want more shell resonance in your snare track. Point the mic closer to the rim to get some snap and overtones. Maybe raise it up some and point it more downwards to get some snap in the snare track. There's a million ways to do it.

This is good stuff Greg, thanks! This reinforces what I'd been reading and seeing on youtube, but actually in more plain language that makes it easier for me to digest. A little less intimidating. I am still not entirely confident I will recognize the drums' fundamental pitch (never thought of drums having pitch before), but I can take a stab at it and as long as I don't go too crazy, her drums shouldn't be harmed.

Yup, all drums have a pitch they want to sound like. High end drums, like DW, have that pitch stamped inside the shell. Some people really stress over tuning the toms to specific notes to fit the song. I personally think that's overkill and pretty insane. For me, as long as the drum is in tune, it'll sound good. No one ever says "man, that tom should have been a D instead of a B!". You don't have to worry about the actual note, but you'll know it when you find it. The drum will boom and ring like a bell. That's where a drum is gonna sound it's biggest. From there, you fine tune the sound by altering the top and bottom heads. What you hear sitting behind the kit doesn't usually translate to tape, and raw drums on tape can change a lot once you plop instruments all over them, so once everything is in tune record some scratch stuff to see how it all fits together. A drum that seems way too boomy in the room by itself will probably be just right in a full mix.

This is good stuff too. Most people seem to have a hole in there somewhere to get the mic in if nothing else. Even if I do as you suggest, I'm guessing mic position will be crucial in terms of the actual recorded sound I get here. Not sure where I'll put the mic if not in the drum, but I will try everything I can think of and see what works best

The kick mic position is really gonna depend on the mic and if you use both heads, one head, or both with a hole. You can pretty much bank on putting it inside the drum, but the depth can vary depending on the sound you want. The beater material matters too. A felt beater is gonna be softer and thuddy compared to the sharp attack and slap of a plastic or wood beater. Deeper into the drum is gonna get more beater attack, shallower is gonna be boomier. If you decide to take the reso head off, reinstall the hoop so the lugs don't rattle. I use both heads with a 5 or 6 inch hole in the reso. Anything bigger than a 6 inch hole is pretty much gonna render the reso head useless, so keep that in mind of you decide to cut a hole. If you want the reso head to still function as a reso head, keep the hole as small as possible, but just big enough to fit a mic in there. The hole location doesn't matter, but keep it off of the very edge. Leave about 2 or 3 inches between the edge of the hole and the edge of the head.

Cool, I absolutely want stereo, but may try a single overhead 1st just in case before I buy anything. If I buy a new pair, I could always set up a room mic and see how it sounds...if garbage, I simply don't mix it in. The garage actually sounds really good to me, but I can't imagine it would qualify as a "really good" room unless I happened to be very lucky. Do you use the CAD SDCs squibble linked to? They are super cheap!

I have read your drum sticky thread and also read about glynn johns and recorderman methods, so when the time comes, I will be careful with positioning. Thanks so much! Really helpful stuff as always Greg.

You're welcome. Yeah I use those cheapo CAD's. They work fine. They're not the best by any means, but they're okay. You can fire me a PM anytime if you have any specific questions.

 

[stevieb]

Have drums...now what ???

I dunno... maybe PLAY them??