harp recording issues

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garf

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I am attempting to record songs on 2 different harps, one harp gives a very good recording (very true to what was played), the other recording sounds nothing like what was played. The recording that works is on a harp that has a fairly small sound board & very 'clean' notes. The recording that fails is on a harp with a very large sound board, alot of resonance, and more bass sounding. The note volumes appear to be picked up unevenly, and the resonance is not clear. I am recording this with Neumann KM 184 microphones, a Mackie 1202 mixer, and Tascam CD recorder. I have played quite a bit with recording levels, & microphone placement (front, back, side, distance) all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of the Neumann microphones that they have problems with large string instruments with alot of resonance? Are there different techniques or microphones I should be looking at?
 
I've got a feeling that you're dealing with a harp that may be in bad repair (or, it could just be a "cheesy" harp, but you don't see too many of those anymore). Or, just a bad sounding harp.

Even though, I was (live) recording a 40 piece symphonic orchestra (Pops) with a harp last week with a - This thing was obviously her "live" harp - Big crack in the board, you could see that some of the seams weren't sitting together... Still, when she started playing, I kept having to bring it back. The thing was obviously an antique, but it sounded fantastic.

On this one that's giving you trouble - How does its sound compare to the "tighter" one before the mic is set up? Is it just a wash of midrangy resonance? If so, there really isn't a mic that's going to clean it up.
 
What mic technique are you using? How well matched are the mics? Have you tried a bass rolloff? Can you try another pre than the Mackie?

Having said that, yeah I agree with the Master. The above stuff isn't likely the problem. Does the harp sound OK live?

I shudder to suggest this but :eek: try some compression, along with using a single mic, bass rolloff, and a little mid-bass scoop. If that works then add the other mic back.

One thing I keep wondering are these 2 different players? If not, don't use the crappy sounding harp! If they are 2 players, then just maybe the one player isn't very consistent?
 
Harvey Gerst wrote a nice thread about miking a harp.
Do a search for it, I'm sure it'll help you out.

If memory serves, he mentioned using an omni out away from the instrument.
 
Do not mic too close, and a wide pattern or omni should give you a better ballance as well as be free from any proximity effect. Also see if you can find any other mics to play with. Almost all mics can be fussy and occasionally a bad match with certain instruments of voices (and I am not a huge KM184 fan, the KM84 is a different story though)
 
Same player on both harps, the 'bass' harp is in excellent repair and definitely sounds better on some of the songs, which is why it would be nice to be able to record it. I have been out about 3 to 6' on the mics. I unfortunately only have the one pre, are there issues with the Mackie? i will try the bass rolloff. The mics were purchased as a matched set, but I have done little to verify this. The problem seems way past not having matched mics.

While looking around for the Gerst post, I also found the following quote on the mic faq
I've had my best luck with a pair of Oktava MC012's X-Y in front and about at the top of the harp, backed off about 3 feet pointed down at the center of the soundboard. Not the *whole* soundboard, but the mid point between the highest and lowest note in the song being played. A third darker mic (Oktava MK319 in my case) is placed over the right shoulder (assuming rt. handed harpist) to pick up the deeper bass tones. See the hole in the back of the thing? That's the sound hole, like if a guitar had its sound hole cut in the back! - Richard Monroe

Any commentary on this? Also why the 84 vs 184 on the Neumann's?
 
garf said:
While looking around for the Gerst post
Click to expand...

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=41088&highlight=harp

Humm, for some reason the above link didn't work...


Harvey Gerst said:
Recording solo harp is a bitch - your signal chain has to be very clean - and very quiet. I've used the Shure SM-81's before and those worked very well. When I do it again, I'll probably try the Marshall MXL-603S's (from about a 4' to 6' distance), or the Behringer ECM8000's (in pretty close). Some points to consider:

The pedals can be noisey, so getting the mics about 6 feet in the air or more can definitely help. Put the harpist on a 4' x 4' square of plywood to direct some of the sound up in the air. Try both X/Y, ORTF, NOS, and even wide A-B spacings to see which works best in your room.

Also, try putting the harpist in the long corner of the room to cut down some of the other room nodes, and then adjust the mic distance, to balance out the one major node you've created (by putting it in the corner).

What didn't work well was the Neumann TLM-103, an AKG 414BULS, an AKG C3000, EV CS-15, and just about every other mic in my damn locker. The woman brought 3 different concert size harps and a medium Celtic harp to the studio.

It took a whole day just to decide on the mics and the placement. Good luck; jazz harp will probably be a little easier, but not much.
Click to expand...

Humm, now the above link works... lol, oh well.
 
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Harps with bigger soundboards can be subject to the same "boom" as big dreadnought guitars. It is also a very dynamic instrument, especially as the harpist/harper moves up and down the soundboard. I would try bass cutting the mics just to see if it helps. Two, back off the mics. The harp is not an instrument that takes well to extremely close mic'ing. In many ways, treat it like a piano. I don't think your KM184's are a problem. I use mine for mic'ing harp with a good deal of success. On the other hand, a Mackie mixer is *not* what I think Harvey is referring to when he talks about a clean signal chain.
Yeah, many people prefer the old KM84 to the newer KM184, claiming the KM184 is too bright. There is some truth to that, but I don't think this is an issue for your application. It's been a long time since I wrote the post above, and now, for the MK319, I substitute the brighter (and better) AKG C414B-ULS. I think your problem is *boom*, bass overloading the pre. Unfortunately, I don't think a Mackie mixer is a very good tool to solve your problem. Back the mics off, and lower input gain. Use bass cut if you have it. Let me know if any of that helps at all. The fact that the smaller harp is OK, and the bigger one isn't, implicates the difference in frequency output of the 2 instruments. Your problem isn't the Neumanns, which are great mics on harp. Your problem is everything else that comes after the Neumanns in the signal chain. A preamp worthy of those Neumanns would be a big step in the right direction. I've had my best luck with Avalon AD2022, but God, it doesn't come cheap.-Richie
 
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