Harmonized lead guitars and panning

[metalhead28]

Let's say you are doing a mix where a lead guitar is harmonized, but only in certain sections, like a second guitar providing accents here and there.
I like to pan harmonized guitar parts pretty hard left and right, but of course I want the single guitar to be in the center. Any sort of transitions that I try, such as automating the panning on the main guitar sounds strange.

What are some ways in which you guys would handle that?

By the way, I'm talking about lead guitars in a heavy metal context, thanks.

 

[Cooperman]

Harmonized guitars panned left and right sound killer! However my philosophy with mixing guitars is, if there's two lead guitarists, I want it to sound that way. So if one guitarist wants to add some harmonized embellishments, then they're gonna be panned the same as his main lead.

If both guitarists are doing a harmonized lead break, then obviously panning each left and right sounds awesome.

If there's one guitarist in the band then I don't mind breaking my rule. A cool thing you could try is to record the main solo up to the end of one harmonized section... then roll back and record the harmonized section followed by the next part of the main solo on another track until the next harmonized section... and bounce back and forth, panning each track left and right.

 

[metalhead28]

If there's one guitarist in the band then I don't mind breaking my rule. A cool thing you could try is to record the main solo up to the end of one harmonized section... then roll back and record the harmonized section followed by the next part of the main solo on another track until the next harmonized section... and bounce back and forth, panning each track left and right.

That does sound like a cool idea, but I don't know if that would fly. There are 2 guitarists, but only one guy plays the leads. He tracked the leads all the way through, and then added little snippets of harmony here and there at my encouragement. I'd definitely like to keep the main track in the center, I just don;t know if I want to pan it during the harmonized parts. It sounds wierd either way to me.

 

[Reggie]

This sort of gets into a "how much time am I willing to spend with this foolishness" issue, but have you tried double tracking the harmonized part and then panning the doubles left and right? That is, if you don't mind it sticking out a little bit. Otherwise if I want it to blend a little more in the background, I would probably just put one track of harmony down the middle with the main lead.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

By what you describe, I don't think hard-paning is the recipe - as k3wl as it may sound on standard doubled arrangements.

When you say the second git is harmonizing, does that mean it's following the same line, just harmonizing by adding the third or a fifth or something, or is he playing his own little fills or mini riffs, related to the lead line in harmony only?

I'd look at three options to try out. First, leave the lead center, and stack the #2 git right with it. This would probably be the most effective if git #2 were indeed doubling partial lines, and doing it at points in the #1 riff that benefit form being accented like accenting the syllable in a word. It would be similar to the trick used on hip-hop vocals (I know you headbangers hate to hear that...except for Kid Rock ) where the second track is adding emphasis to the first on a particular word in order to emphasize that word or to give an extra cadence to the rhythm of the track.

The second option would be to move the lead git just a tad off-center, say 10% or so either way, and throw git #2 in symmetrically at 10% the other direction. This is a robust option as it does let you have some seperation betwen the gutars, still sounding pretty cool, yet the lead git is not far enough off-center as to be mentally noted as anything but pretty much in the middle of the mix. Additionally this can still provide enough room in the center for the lead vocal to shine without constraint.

The third option is arrangement-dependant, but it can work well, even in metal, if the relation between the vocals and the guitars in the arrangement are right. This would be to symmetrically pan the lead git and the vocal, one somewhere around 25% L and the other around 25% R. This works best when both are prettty much full time, so you get a good overall balance of energy between the two tracks. The fill git placement would depend a lot upon it's function as I asked about in the first paragraph; that can go down the middle, or, if it's a fill part where the vocals are fairly voing, you can pan that to around where the vocals are.

Remember, mixes can remain fully symmetric-sounding and down the middle without actually having to pile everything up on the center line of the stage.

G.

 

[metalhead28]

The "accent" guitar or whatever you'd want to call it is playing the same phrases, only harmonized in thirds or something similar.

The best approach I think may be either leaving them both up the middle, or maybe just a touch to either side like you've said. I suppose it does make sense to compare it to accented lines in hip hop vocals (no matter how much I hate it ). It's just been my instinct to try and seperate them as much as possible, I guess that is just too much for situations like this.

Thanks alot for the feedback everyone.

 

[nddhc]

Sometimes in my own songs ill record the lead guitar part twice and during one of the tracks ill do the duals. So during some of the parts both tracks are playing the same exact thing. This lets me pan them left and right without feeling like the guitar just drops out on one side. Im really into the Brian may and ELO style lead guitar sounds where there is some natural chorusing and phasing going on, but it might not work so well in something like metal (if thats what youre doing)

Just thought id throw that out there

 

[legionserial]

The second option would be to move the lead git just a tad off-center, say 10% or so either way, and throw git #2 in symmetrically at 10% the other direction. This is a robust option as it does let you have some seperation betwen the gutars, still sounding pretty cool, yet the lead git is not far enough off-center as to be mentally noted as anything but pretty much in the middle of the mix. Additionally this can still provide enough room in the center for the lead vocal to shine without constraint.

This seems to work for me. Sometimes I'll pan them a little further apart, and then send the main lead to reverbs, which panned more to the other side. With a bit of tweaking it seems to work ok.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Let's say you are doing a mix where a lead guitar is harmonized, but only in certain sections, like a second guitar providing accents here and there.
I like to pan harmonized guitar parts pretty hard left and right, but of course I want the single guitar to be in the center. Any sort of transitions that I try, such as automating the panning on the main guitar sounds strange.

What are some ways in which you guys would handle that?

By the way, I'm talking about lead guitars in a heavy metal context, thanks.

One method of dealing with this is to make them sound different. If you use different guitars/amps they may be able to sit right on top of each other happily. This may not be the sound you're after though.

If you want the identical character on both tracks you may have to take some size out of the harmony like rolling off extra low end so that the whole thing doesn't get too weighty when both guitars are playing.

 

[ecktronic]

Personally Id double track all the lead parts and pan them, maybe not full left and right but not far off. Maybe 80% to avoid phasing.
You could try panning them slightly to the side.

So Lead 1 would be full left and 70% right
Lead 2 would be 70% left and full right
And the extra lead could be mono slightly to one side or double tracked and bang in the centre, or off to one side slightly.

This would bring the harmonies together to sound like they are as one, but still having their own seperation from (obviously the difference in notes) and from the slight panning to each side.

Eck

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

This seems to work for me. Sometimes I'll pan them a little further apart, and then send the main lead to reverbs, which panned more to the other side. With a bit of tweaking it seems to work ok.

Yep, that's a good option I use a lot but forgot totally about at post time . Use reverb as the balancer. Put the git#1 verb where git#2 is, and vice versa

And the nice thing about opening them a bit wider (say 35-40% left and right) Is that you get some good movement and drama in the mix when you have seperate parts like that. The physidal bounce between the two guitars when git #2 does the harmony grabs the listener and yanks them right back into the song just when they start to drift off from boredom.

I think this works best, though, when git#2 is not doubling the line. When it's in the form of a fill, mini-riff, etc., it's a bit more dynamic. But it can work either way, especially when the timbre and EQ are different enough between the two gits.

Honestly, there's a whole 180° of soundstage you metal guys should explore more. I know hard panning doubled lines sounds way cool, I'm not denying that. But based upon what I've seen on this board, the vast majority of you seem to think that's the only option. You guys are severly limiting yourselves, IMHO. There is a whole soundstage out there for you to explore without losing your "metalness"; a whole plethora of cool techniques and effects that can sound just as bad ass and let you creatively distance yourself from the competition.

G.