Guitars sound flat and messy?

[ItsTheSebbe]

First of all, I just joined this forum and I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Sebbe, a 16-year old Dutch guy that likes to play electric (and sometimes acoustic) guitar in his spare time and has been doing so for about 5 years. About 6 months ago I bought an Audio Interface, so I could start doing some recording. I've done a few covers, though that was pretty much just putting a single audio track of mine over a backing track, adding something like an EQ and compressor and Bob's your uncle.

Now a few days ago I wanted to take it up a notch and just completely cover a track from the ground up (programming drums/bass and playing the guitar parts myself) and I chose the song Lordvessel - Tanooki Suit. Now it's done, but I'm still a bit unsatisfied. When comparing mine with theirs, it sounds like mine is a bit flat and messy, they are at some part 5 guitars playing at once and they just kinda get blended together. I've tried to do some EQ-ing, but theirs is still a lot fuller.

Never mixed anything before so any tips on how I can improve it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

(I've attached both the original and my cover, so you can compare.)

 

[JimmyS1969]

Hello Sebbe, welcome to the forum.

Well, it sounds like you have the playing part going quite well. The issue here is going to be the quality of your tone going into your DAW. Also everything in a mix relates to how other instruments sound. Right off I first noticed the huge difference in the drum sound.

The bad news is that there is a reason a production like that costs so much. The good news is you can improve things in your home studio to get closer.

To improve the quality of your recording is going to take many improvements on many levels. Too many to mention in the time I have right now.

Read the 'stickies' on every forum here (top posts in each). They contain much of the information you will want to have. After reading up on the topics, relate that to what you are doing then ask more direct questions from there.


Again, welcome. There is much to learn. Hell, nobody stops learning. I know I don't.

Jimmy

I am sure there will be others with more direct advice that will post here.

 

[ocnor]

To get a fuller sounding mix you need to add more space not more low end. You have almost no mids and high end which makes your mix sound dull/no air. On the up side your playing is very good.

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

To get a fuller sounding mix you need to add more space not more low end. You have almost no mids and high end which makes your mix sound dull/no air. On the up side your playing is very good.

Thanks! How would I go about doing that? I already have low cuts on everything except for the bass and drums.

 

[ocnor]

You will need to experiment with a parametric eq on the individual instruments. Try boosting 2-3 db and sweep around. When you hit the right frequencies it will pop out at you. Also adding small amounts of reverb will give each instrument some space.

 

[JimmyS1969]

You will need to experiment with a parametric eq on the individual instruments. Try boosting 2-3 db and sweep around. When you hit the right frequencies it will pop out at you. Also adding small amounts of reverb will give each instrument some space.

Ouch!.... Be careful with reverb. No offense ocnor. The original version you are covering has very little use of reverb. If it is there it is used correctly after the tones have been worked together. Your version already sounds distant. Reverb will only enhance that in this situation.

I will agree with the 'sweep' technique that ocnor mentions. It is likely you can find some of the issues there.

On second listen, I truly believe you need to get the drums working before you will get even close to the original sound of this song. It all starts from the rhythm section in this genre.

What program are you using to program the drums? Let's start there.


And by the way, I am sorry if I was short in my first post. I just had things to do. I was not trying to say I would not help and direct you only to reading. You obviously have the playing skills. I am willing to help you find a way to get your tracks sounding better. I still recommend you read everything you can here though.

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

Ouch!.... Be careful with reverb. No offense ocnor. The original version you are covering has very little use of reverb. If it is there it is used correctly after the tones have been worked together. Your version already sounds distant. Reverb will only enhance that in this situation.

I will agree with the 'sweep' technique that ocnor mentions. It is likely you can find some of the issues there.

On second listen, I truly believe you need to get the drums working before you will get even close to the original sound of this song. It all starts from the rhythm section in this genre.

What program are you using to program the drums? Let's start there.


And by the way, I am sorry if I was short in my first post. I just had things to do. I was not trying to say I would not help and direct you only to reading. You obviously have the playing skills. I am willing to help you find a way to get your tracks sounding better. I still recommend you read everything you can here though.

Oh crap, I just noticed I didn't respond at all to your message. Sorry about that, didn't mean to leave a bad taste. I had just started to read some stickies and there's some really helpful stuff in there. I had no idea what a compressor was before, I just kinda threw it on there and changed the settings until it sounded somewhat decent.

Anyways, about the "sweep" technique, what do you actually mean by that? I guess it's like boosting tiny parts and you hear they sound off, you lower them, or something along those lines?

As for the drums, I pretty much do everything in Mixcraft 6. The annoying thing is, there are only like 15 drum kits in there and probably about 2/3rds of them are dance/techno kinda kits. From the few I had left I used the one that was the most similar to the one in the original. Not sure if you have any experience with mixcraft at all but I believe it was called "studio drums". After that I added a small bass boost, because I read somewhere that that makes the bass drum sound more clearly. Another small thing I noticed with the drums was that it was distorting (or what it is called when your sound levels go into the red.) very quickly, even without the bass boost. I had to turn the volume down like 10 decibels for it not to distort.

Also, thanks a lot for trying to help me out! Same goes for you aswell Ocnor! To have people help me within an hour or after posting is really awesome.

 

[Greg_L]

The drums are a trainwreck. Start there. I have to ask, what are you monitoring with? Not picking on you, but how do you not hear the glaring differences between your drums and the original?

 

[JimmyS1969]

No problem man. I don't get offended.

Sweep technique is something you can find many videos about. Basically you use a parametric EQ with a tight curve (Q) and boost the signal to find the annoying frequencies. Then you cut that frequency. It is good for finding the frequencies that are fighting with other instruments in a mix as well as shaping individual tones. Keep in mind as I stated earlier, every instrument in a mix depends on the other to work together.

It gets easier over time, but every song, tone, player, genre, smelly people, are different. Each need special treatment.

As far as your levels, I am not familiar with Mixcraft at all. Most DAWs will not distort at track level. It is the master output that you will have issues.

I recommend that you look into a good drum VSTi at this point. My favorite is SSD4. Not even sure if you can use that in Mixcraft. I don't hear of many using it.

OK, gotta go eat dinner. Be back later.

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

The drums are a trainwreck. Start there. I have to ask, what are you monitoring with? Not picking on you, but how do you not hear the glaring differences between your drums and the original?

Yeah, I do indeed hear the differences between my drums and the original. I have yet to find a way how to reproduce them, because in Mixcraft 6's standard package dealio are only about +-5 drum kits that I could use because the rest were pretty much dance kits. That is, unless I have overlooked, but I don't think I have.

If you're actually wondering about my monitors, I got a pair of M-Audio BX5 D2's.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah, I do indeed hear the differences between my drums and the original. I have yet to find a way how to reproduce them, because in Mixcraft 6's standard package dealio are only about +-5 drum kits that I could use because the rest were pretty much dance kits. That is, unless I have overlooked, but I don't think I have.

If you're actually wondering about my monitors, I got a pair of M-Audio BX5 D2's.

Ok, so first off, it's good you can hear the difference. Get a better drum program and use a DAW that will do more of what you want/need to do. I'd suggest Reaper because it's trial version is free and fully functional. If you like it, please buy it. At 60 bucks or so, and with it being fully capable of doing everything under the sun, it's a steal.

Next, how did you record the guitars?

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

Ok, so first off, it's good you can hear the difference. Get a better drum program and use a DAW that will do more of what you want/need to do. I'd suggest Reaper because it's trial version is free and fully functional. If you like it, please buy it. At 60 bucks or so, and with it being fully capable of doing everything under the sun, it's a steal.

Next, how did you record the guitars?

Honestly, I think I should be able to figure it out on Mixcraft 6. I bought that maybe half a year ago and I'm really liking the interface. I think it should be able to suit my needs, I have yet to find out a limitation, but that may not a lot.

Searching for drum VSTi's right now. Searched for the one Jimmys used, but that one doesn't have some kind of a trial version. I'd like to try it out before buying anything. Any recommendations?

The guitars are recorded straight from my guitar to audio interface, no amps/mic's involved.

 

[Greg_L]

Honestly, I think I should be able to figure it out on Mixcraft 6. I bought that maybe half a year ago and I'm really liking the interface. I think it should be able to suit my needs, I have yet to find out a limitation, but that may not a lot.

Searching for drum VSTi's right now. Searched for the one Jimmys used, but that one doesn't have some kind of a trial version. I'd like to try it out before buying anything. Any recommendations?

No, not from me. I use real drums. I think Jimmy is the resident programmed drums guru, so listen to him. If he says use SSD4, whatever that is, go buy it now.

The guitars are recorded straight from my guitar to audio interface, no amps/mic's involved.

That's another big problem the way I see it. You've got a mix with not one single authentic sound recorded on it. Fake drums, fake guitars, how's it ever supposed to sound real? Surely the band you're covering used sample replaced and heavily quantized drums in their song, and you can do the same, but I'd guess they used real amps, or at least very good sims/amp modeling.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Tell ya what Sebbe, email me your MIDI file for the whole drum track. I will use it in SSD4 and send back to you as individual files for you to see what can be done.

And Greg is correct, you are dealing with sounds that mimic the real deal. Not to mention they are not even the expensive versions of what get even close. There is no way to duplicate an exact copy of any other band even if you had the exact gear.

That is not to say you can't get close and be proud of it. Let's work to get you there.

Oh, and PM me. The email I use here is a junk account used only for notifications. Anything but HR goes to spam folder. It has more in it than moresound has posted.

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

Tell ya what Sebbe, email me your MIDI file for the whole drum track. I will use it in SSD4 and send back to you as individual files for you to see what can be done.

And Greg is correct, you are dealing with sounds that mimic the real deal. Not to mention they are not even the expensive versions of what get even close. There is no way to duplicate an exact copy of any other band even if you had the exact gear.

That is not to say you can't get close and be proud of it. Let's work to get you there.

Oh, and PM me. The email I use here is a junk account used only for notifications. Anything but HR goes to spam folder. It has more in it than moresound has posted.

Oh, man, that is amazing! Thanks a lot for taking the time of your day to fix my shitty mix! I will send you a PM right away. Not sure if I send the right format, just tell me if there's anything wrong with it.

Also, it was never really my intention to make it sound exactly like theirs. I pretty much want to make it sound somewhat decent and enjoyable to listen to. And I think that should be doable without spending thousands of dollars on expensive equipment.

 

[JimmyS1969]

LOL! I can't fix the mix, well unless you want me too. lol

I can help you to get closer on your own.

Here is both a rough mix of SSD4/your MP3 blended and the SSD4 drum track alone. This is just the stock 'deluxe metal' kit with no changes made from your MIDI file. Keep in mind there are 7 snare hits and 11 HH hits (in this kit alone) that you can vary when programming to make it sound more 'real'. Then you can adjust velocity within those samples to create a natural feel. I didn't touch anything there.

Also, here is a link to the individual audio (24-bit wav) files of each of the audio outputs from SSD4. (Kick, Snare, Tom 1, Tom 2, Tom 3, HH, Overheads, and Room mic. Feel free to experiment with them in your mix.

https://www.yousendit.com/download/ZUcxOGNkR0ZwM2swTWRVag

BTW, the decay of the kick is mostly in the room mic. I would typically take that down, but wanted you to hear what the basic kit setup sounds like.

Oh, sorry I had no egg shaker to redo the part at 2:16. It sounds good as it is anyway.

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

LOL! I can't fix the mix, well unless you want me too. lol

I can help you to get closer on your own.

Here is both a rough mix of SSD4/your MP3 blended and the SSD4 drum track alone. This is just the stock 'deluxe metal' kit with no changes made from your MIDI file. Keep in mind there are 7 snare hits and 11 HH hits (in this kit alone) that you can vary when programming to make it sound more 'real'. Then you can adjust velocity within those samples to create a natural feel. I didn't touch anything there.

Also, here is a link to the individual audio (24-bit wav) files of each of the audio outputs from SSD4. (Kick, Snare, Tom 1, Tom 2, Tom 3, HH, Overheads, and Room mic. Feel free to experiment with them in your mix.

*hmm, not allowed to post URL's yet*

BTW, the decay of the kick is mostly in the room mic. I would typically take that down, but wanted you to hear what the basic kit setup sounds like.

Oh, sorry I had no egg shaker to redo the part at 2:16. It sounds good as it is anyway.

Oh wow, these drums sound so much colourful and bright, I definitely made a great change!

The thing you said about the multiple sound files for 1 drum is one thing I did have some problems with on my stock software. The only drums that had multiple sounds for them were the bass drum and the snare, which both had 2. No multiple hihat or cymbal sounds, which is why I tried to mess around with the velocity to reduce "the machine gun effect?" (something like that), but there's only so much you can do with the same sound file.

Now that I know that I really need some kind of VSTi to improve my drums, do you know any other cheaper (or even preferably free) drum VSTi's? I know it might be a lot to ask, but I don't feel comfortable paying 100$ for a VSTi I have never been able to play around with. I'm still a student, so money is pretty scarce.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Nothing free man. Not of any quality anyway. EZDrummer is the cheapest, but you have to upgrade to other kits. SSD4 EX comes with 25 kits. Platinum 100 kits. You can interchange any of the pieces.

I would love to just buy it for you but I don't know you that well just yet... I don't even know your name. - oh wait, I guess I do. lol

I am not even sure your system can run a drum program efficiently.

What are your system specs?

 

[ItsTheSebbe]

Nothing free man. Not of any quality anyway. EZDrummer is the cheapest, but you have to upgrade to other kits. SSD4 EX comes with 25 kits. Platinum 100 kits. You can interchange any of the pieces.

I would love to just buy it for you but I don't know you that well just yet... I don't even know your name. - oh wait, I guess I do. lol

I am not even sure your system can run a drum program efficiently.

What are your system specs?

Lol, you shouldn't buy anything for me, man! I have build a somewhat decent gaming PC about 2 years ago, so it should be able to run it.

CPU: Intel i5-3570k (3,4 Ghz)
GPU: Sapphire HD 7870
Ram: Corsair Vengeance (2x4GB)
Running on Windows 7 Professional SP1

That should be all.
*checking out EZDrummer now*

 

[JimmyS1969]

Oh good, you got one of the 4 core i5's.

Make sure not to connect to one of the pirate sites. You will flog yourself and I will have to not like you anymore.

Download demo from HERE.