Guitar overdubbing

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zebadee

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I've recorded one rhythm guitar part and then recorded another of me playing the same thing over it and panned one 75% left and the other 75% right. It sounds OK but not quite thick enough.

As soon as I put down a third rhythm part over the other 2 it all sounds really thin and almost like there is loads of reverb (even though I didn't use any).

Any ideas what the problem is? I guess it kinda sound like a phase problem but I don't see how it could be. :confused:

Please help!
 
Are you miking the cabinet or going direct in?If you are miking the cabinet,what kind of mic are you using,condensor or moving coil?How far are you placing the mic?What is your recording level?If you are going direct in what kind of preamp are you using?

MOnty Neese,
 
I'm micing with a sm57 and the mic is about 1" from the grill cloth. I just set the gain on the mic pre so that it peaks just before the red in cooledit.

I don't get why it sounds fine with 1 or 2 tracks and any more it goes weird :(
 
Well it your micing technique is solid.You could however try about 6 to 8 inches away to give it a little more "air" but I don't think that is your complete answer.There could very well be a phase problem since the recording is all the same sound frequincies.You can check your monitor cones and see if they are working against each other or simply reverse the phase on one of the tracks and see if that helps.

To thicken up your sound you might try a little bit of delay on on of the tracks maybe about 2mls.I have never had much luck with three guitar tracks tracked the same it is usually "muddy" when I do it but many have had great results.

Is your preamp solid state or tube.I have both and the tube is usually a little warmer for digital applications.

Also try a little eq boost on the lower mid's.

Monty Neese,
 
try using delay , reverb, and/or chorus to fatten them up...
 
when you are recording back vocals you record several takes of each part to get a smoothed out sound.

why woudn't this be the same for rhythm guitar?

you probably do have a phase issue if the sound has become tinny. here's a question, does the sound only become tinny when the 3rd guitar part is involved?

ie... guitar 1 & guitar 2 is thicker than a single part?
guitar 1 & guitar 3 is it thick or tinny?
guitar 2 & guitar 3 is it thick or tinny?
 
I have to agree with the previous reply, It sounds like a phase issue if things are seeming to sound thin even though you have many layers of guitar over eachother. Maybe try to start messing around with the phase on individual tracks.
 
I'd also say phasing might be a problem. When you bring in the 2nd and 3rd guitars does the other "disappear?" If so, that's usually phasing (for me at least).

Try reversing the phase, if you can, in your audio software.
 
I've tried:

guitar 1 & guitar 2 : OK
guitar 1 & guitar 3 : OK
guitar 2 & guitar 3 : OK

I've tried inverting the phase of the third track and I still have the same problem. As soon as there is more than 2 tracks the problem occurs.

none of the parts really disappear, it's like there is a kind of "gap" or space between the two parts panned left and right and the 3rd track.
 
im pretty sure that's phasing. did you defintley invert the phase?
 
Works Fine With 2 Tracks

I record 1 rhythm guitar and pan it 100% left and record the same rhythm part guitar 2 and pan it 100% right. It sounds really wide amd full. I've got a song recorded if you want to hear.


Cheers
Tukkis
 
if you're using Software for recording, check the time alignment of the tracks. sounds like a phasing issue. you may need to set an offset while recording parameter or something similar.
-kp-
 
I was about to jump on the phase angle too(Pun alert!), but maybe..."what we have here, is a failure... to communicate"*
...thin and like loads of reverb?
I think of thin as lacking bottom. And reverb takes away articulation and punch, not lows. Phase should only be a problem if it's the same take, combined out of phase.

You didn't say, but could these happen to be rather heavily distorted tracks?
If they were, then I could see over dubs of anything like sustained cords just getting mushier. Punch and thickness is sort of the opposite of layeres of red-lined...what ever.
What do you think? Am I off/on the right track here?


*'Cool hand Luke' used w/o permission!:)
 
I think i know what you're talking about. Is the 3rd guitar panned or just dead center? If it's dead center that's the problem. Add a fourth guitar and pan them like the first 2.
 
I've tried four guitar parts and panning 3 and 4 the same as 1 and 2 and i still get the same problem.

Yeah they are pretty heavily distorted tracks, I'm after a smashing pumpkins "siamese dream" era sound and I know Billy overdubbed loads of rhythm guitars. Sorry if my explination of the problem is not great but it's really hard to describe.

I'm thiniking I'll have to stick with just 2 tracks...
 
Try doing a test playing 4 different parts and listent to each one back seperatly, just to check you aren't accidentally bouncing something. Other than that i dunno what you could do. For the siamese 'fatness' try doing 1 track on the bridge pickup and one on the neck.
 
I disagree that it is a phase problem, though it could be. Check your time alignment as someone else mentioned 1st. I have noticed before that if I'm not getting really REALLY tight performances as I overdub, it'll start moving from thicker to sloppier instantly. Make sure you are playing REALLY tight over the top of it. Practice it about 200 times before you do actually attempt to take the track. Also, try panning the 1st two pretty wide, and then adjust your tone or mic another amp, and pan those two closer together. Be sure your mic placement is consistent track to track, if not, check phase.
I think the culprit may be how tight you are with yourself as a player. I vary from day to day in consistency, so don't take it as an insult. :)
 
Try changing the distortion and EQ of the 3rd guitar track, maybe a little (or a lot) less distortion then tweak with the EQ. Try to get the 3rd track into a different frequency range than the other guitar tracks, cause that does sound like phasing problems to me (but then again I'm no Sjoko :D). When you play the same part over and over again with really a really distorted guitar the frequencies aren't really gonna change that much from each different take. So when you do a bunch of takes it's gonna cause phasing problems if they're all in the same frequency range.
You've heard about clearing a place for each instrument in the mix, like cutting certain frequenies in the bass to make room for the kick, cutting frequencies in the guitar to make room for the vocals.....now you have to make room for the 2nd guitar so they don't get all jumbled together (and cancel each other out).

How do the two guitar tracks sound when they are NOT panned?

-tkr
 
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