Grounding issue, your advice appreciated

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cordura21

cordura21

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I have an electrical outlet where my gear is connected. I checked to see if the grounding was working with my multimeter, by measuring voltage between the hot and the ground prong. It didn't read the 220 V we use here in Argentina, it reads something like 100 V. When measuring voltage between the hot and the neutral prong and it reads 220 V, so there's not lack of voltage in the circuit. It seems that there's resistance in the grounding.
My question is: is it ok to run with this grounding, from a sound perspective (ground loops, etc...) and also from a safety perspective?

Cheers, Andrés
 
btw, yesterday I connected my ensoniq and in the out plug it has some current, it gave me a shock. I know old ensoniqs are known for this. Maybe I'll ground the chassis.
Cheers, Andrés
 
Andre's, I'm not sure what Argentina uses for power distribution, but if you can measure 100 volts from EITHER pin to ground, it's possible you have 3-phase power distribution. If the two pins measure DIFFERENTLY to ground, then you have likely an un-balanced load on the power. This can be caused by having too many devices on one phase compared to the other. this condition can only be fixed by either plugging certain things into other outlets, or it may be caused by a bad transformer or motor that's shorting out part of the power.

With 3-phase distribution, each phase is 120 degrees away from each of the other two. If you use two of the 3 phases, since they are not 180 degrees out of phase, each phase, measured to ground, will be MORE than half the nominal voltage - here in the US for example, industrial 3-phase 440 volt power measures 277 volts to ground. This is using Delta type transformers. There is a "Y" method of wiring, where one winding of the transformer is center-tapped to ground, with 208 volts between legs, and 120 volts across each leg. If you get the wrong leg (phase) to ground with this system, you get about 177 volts if I remember correctly. Here, the "Y" system is only used in commercial places, like restaurants, stores, etc - the Delta system is used in industry, since it's easier to wire and implement and stays balanced with less effort.

In your case, having LESS than half the nominal voltage from one phase may indeed signal a grounding problem. I would (carefully, this stuff kills) measure the OTHER leg to ground, and if they are NOT the same, TURN OFF the power at the service entrance so that your whole house is dead and set your meter to read OHMS x 1 - find a metal water pipe that makes contact with the earth, and measure from that to the ground pin on your power outlet. It should measure ZERO ohms, same as if you touched the two leads of the meter together. If not, your main electrical ground is bad.

There should be a metal (copper, usually) rod driven into the ground near where the power comes into your house - there should be a (sometimes bare) copper wire clamped to this rod and connecting to the ground bus inside the power panel in the house. If this looks at all corroded, do NOT dis-connect this wire or touch it - you will probably get a shock. Instead, contact your power company and have them re-attach the wire properly, after cleaning the connections. Make sure your main dis-connect switch (or main breaker) to the house is open (OFF) before doing this.

If you have grounding problems in your wiring, and you ground your synth, you may either get shocked elsewhere or possible start a fire. At the very least, you will most likely damage the synth.

In cases like this, you need to actually FIX the problem, not put a band-aid on it. Remember, electricity KILLS - you don't often get a second chance to do it right the SECOND time... Steve
 
Thanks Steve for that help.

My house uses bi-phasic electricity, though the distribution is done in 3 phases. A friend who has a bigger house uses the three of them.

Anyways, I think it should read 220V from the hot to the neutral and from the hot to the ground. In the last one, it reads much less.

This is an old house and I think there's not even a grounding rod. I think it reaches ground thru the pipes. I guess they are not good enough. Most of the plugs have just 2 prongs on them, and the grounding cable is missing inside of the 3 prong ones. My temporal fix was to attach a small cable to the metal case.

BUT HERE'S AN IMPORTANT THING I DISCOVERED: there's conductivity between the HOT prong... and my CARPET! No kidding, like 220 V . It's stronger near a fixed window, so I guess it has to do with some water leakage (even if it's fixed).

Anyways, I know it's pretty dangerous and I'll fix it. But it also made me wonder how can this circuit have more voltage than the pipes. How can the carpet be attached to the ground?
 
Man, you're lucky you're still alive to ask for help - whatever you do, GET THIS FIXED !!!

Remember, DEATH is electricity's way of saying "Thanks for playing with me"...
 
thanks for the advice guys.

Yes I'm pretty lucky. I got a shock from my synth which was a little away from the window, so the voltage was less. I guess this is because of being less water in that part of the carpet. When I touched the carpet that was near the window the voltage was 220 V.

One question: could it be that the wet carpet itself is a 220 V ground, or do you think it's connected to something else? The wet part is like 3 squared feet.

Andrés
 
c7sus said:
If it's carpet on top of concrete, YES!

Sorry c7sus, I didn't understand. You mean that if the carpet is on top of concrete, it makes a ground?

Or that being in concrete, the carpet connects to the earth ground?

I guess it's the second, right?
 
While we're at it ... How relevant to the US is the tip from the SAE site about having lights, fridge and studio power on 3 different phases? Not even sure we have 3 phases in the states (besides industrial) .... i am a newbie as u can see :)
 
Thanks Knightfly and C7sus for the advice. I'm having the installation properly grounded by a specialist. Regards, Andrés
 
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