Green Bullet Harmonica Mic Help

[Posse32]

Hi there,

So, I recently purchased a Green Bullet Harmonica microphone looking to get that "lo-fi"/bullhorn sound but I'm having some troubles with the mixing/EQ aspect of it. I'm having some feedback issues. I guess I should clarify that I'm trying to use it for vocals.

Any help with the mixing of it? Thanks so much!

 

[moresound]

Feedback! Is this for live work?
Or do you need to turn off your monitors while recording.
Or do you mean the amp that your trying to mic up?

 

[NYMorningstar]

Hi there,

So, I recently purchased a Green Bullet Harmonica microphone looking to get that "lo-fi"/bullhorn sound but I'm having some troubles with the mixing/EQ aspect of it. I'm having some feedback issues. I guess I should clarify that I'm trying to use it for vocals.

Any help with the mixing of it? Thanks so much!

For live music, unless you are using this for a vocal screamer and you eat the mic it's not a good choice for a vocal mic. It has an omnidirectional polar pattern and picks up everything pretty much, thus the feedback.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Posse,

You really do need to clarify a bit more; if you are mixing and EQing during mixing, why does you mic even enter into the equation? It should not even be active or available as part of a feedback loop when you're doing that.

If, OTOH you're talking about getting feedback while recording, turn down your cue headphones or monitors, they are too loud and bleeding too loudly into the microphone.

Also, if you're using one of the newer "DX" models of the greenie, try turning down the built-in gain knob and recording with a bit cooler of a signal - especially if you are currently recording with the levels pushing 0dBFS; they don't need to be that hot.

Finally, don't be surprised if your vocals aren't as grungy-sounding as you'd expect with that mic, especially if it is one of the newer DX models. While that mic is no bastion of clarity, it's not exactly quite as "lo-fi"-sounding as one might expect, either. Amongst hard core harp players, it's actually one of the least-favored of bullet mics for a grungy sound (also because it's among the bulkiest and heaviest in weight of the bullet-style mics, but that's another story.)

I'm not saying that it's a bad choice; not at all. I'm just saying that depending on just how "lo-fi" you really want to get, you might want to help it a bit by throwing some extra tricks in there like over-driving the preamp, or running the output of the mic through a cheap amp like a little Pignose or something, and then miking that to the recorder, or some kind of "saturation" plug or effect, or simply some extreme EQ to really get the full lo-fi grunge that perhaps you want from that mic.

G.

 

[Posse32]

I'm talking about live vocals. Not for recording. I know there's a number of artists who use a Green Bullet or a mic similar to get a certain sound from it. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a good mixing technique to kill the feedback and make it sound good?

Thanks for the replies.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm talking about live vocals. Not for recording. I know there's a number of artists who use a Green Bullet or a mic similar to get a certain sound from it. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a good mixing technique to kill the feedback and make it sound good?

Again, if you have the newer DX model (why won't you supply that info?), turn down the gain on the mic itself and let the FOH guy adjust for it on the mixer.

Other than that, the answer is no different for that mic than it is for all mics:
Turning down the treble on that mic channel can help control the feedback, as can turning down the stage monitors or turning then a bit away from the mic.

If all that just doesn't work, move to an IEM.

G.

 

[Posse32]

Sorry, I forgot when I made that last post. I do have the newer model.

Thanks for your advice and comments! I really appreciate it! I have yet to reach the level of having or needing an FOH guy, still jamming with the band in my jam spot.

Thanks again!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Thanks for your advice and comments! I really appreciate it! I have yet to reach the level of having or needing an FOH guy, still jamming with the band in my jam spot.

Well, then YOU are the FOH guy . Which means, along with the other stuff, the idea is to try and turn down the mic gain on the mic so that it's not acting quite so sensitive, and making up for the loss of vocal volume in the PA by boosting the gain on the PA mix as necessary instead.

G.

 

[NYMorningstar]

the idea is to try and turn down the mic gain on the mic so that it's not acting quite so sensitive, and making up for the loss of vocal volume in the PA by boosting the gain on the PA mix as necessary instead.
G.

How does lowering the gain on the mic and boosting it's gain in the PA's mix change the feedback problem?

Wouldn't a better solution be to boost the volume of the source(scream louder) or use a cardoid?

 

[acidrock]

I've never used my bullet on vocals but I have used it for harmonica.The mic works more like a filter and doesn't really distort that much,the distortion you hear most harmonica players getting is from the amplifier.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

How does lowering the gain on the mic and boosting it's gain in the PA's mix change the feedback problem?

Wouldn't a better solution be to boost the volume of the source(scream louder) or use a cardoid?

Switching mics might help the feedback, but it doesn't solve the problem of wanting to use *that* mic without the feedback. He's wanting to use that mic because he want's it's tone specifically. It's not an uncommon idea. And there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to use it on stage; I use mine all the time on stage and have no feedback problems.

Most likely his feedback is coming from the stage wedges, not the PA mains. But regardless of where it's coming from, by turning down the gain on the mic and adjusting for that by boosting the gain on the vocal channel in the PA mixer, the result is that he still gets the same amplification volume out of the mains, so nothing is lost there; but with the gain on the mic turned down, the mic sensitivity is reduced, and the volume of the bleed from either the monitors or the mains is reduced, reducing the chance for feedback.

The mic works more like a filter and doesn't really distort that much,the distortion you hear most harmonica players getting is from the amplifier.

Exactly. And this is even more true with the newer DX models than with the Green Bullets of many moons ago. The original GBs were grungier-sounding than the newer DX ones are. Which is one of the reasons I was asking about the specific model. Also because the originals did not have the gain control on them.

G.

 

[acidrock]

Switching mics might help the feedback, but it doesn't solve the problem of wanting to use *that* mic without the feedback. He's wanting to use that mic because he want's it's tone specifically. It's not an uncommon idea. And there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to use it on stage; I use mine all the time on stage and have no feedback problems.

Most likely his feedback is coming from the stage wedges, not the PA mains. But regardless of where it's coming from, by turning down the gain on the mic and adjusting for that by boosting the gain on the vocal channel in the PA mixer, the result is that he still gets the same amplification volume out of the mains, so nothing is lost there; but with the gain on the mic turned down, the mic sensitivity is reduced, and the volume of the bleed from either the monitors or the mains is reduced, reducing the chance for feedback.Exactly. And this is even more true with the newer DX models than with the Green Bullets of many moons ago. The original GBs were grungier-sounding than the newer DX ones are. Which is one of the reasons I was asking about the specific model. Also because the originals did not have the gain control on them.

G.

Mine has a volume control and basically I leave it wide open.In my mind the only use for it would be to turn it down because of feedback.I don't really see/hear any advantage to turning it down.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Mine has a volume control and basically I leave it wide open.In my mind the only use for it would be to turn it down because of feedback.I don't really see/hear any advantage to turning it down.

Same here. I have never needed or wanted to turn it down for any other reason than feedback.

G.

 

[NYMorningstar]

S He's wanting to use that mic because he want's it's tone specifically...

But regardless of where it's coming from, by turning down the gain on the mic and adjusting for that by boosting the gain on the vocal channel in the PA mixer, the result is that he still gets the same amplification volume out of the mains, so nothing is lost there; but with the gain on the mic turned down, the mic sensitivity is reduced, and the volume of the bleed from either the monitors or the mains is reduced, reducing the chance for feedback.Exactly. G.

I think he's looking for a specific sound, not mic. Personally I'd recommend a Shure 55Sh handheld for his purpose.

Anyhow, I'm having trouble rapping my head around the feedback solution. If you just change the source of the gain don't you still have the same problem? If anything other than changing out the mic, I'd sweep and turn down the offensive frequencies.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Well, yeah, a 55 would provide a similar sound. But the guy has already bought the GB. Why not get it to work, when there's no solid reason why it can't? Yeah, it's omni, and yeah therefore it's more prone to feedback, but those things are used on stage every day around the world, and there's no good reason why he can't use his on stage also.

And yeah, I agree that turning down the treble is probably at least half, if not all, of his solution.

But for situations where just cutting the treble is not enough, or where so much treble would have to be cut to stop the feedback that it adversely affects the sound of the vocals themselves, then one needs to attack the feedback loop itself.

I'm not sure which part of the gain solution thing is throwing you. Here's the idea again: By adjusting the gain down on the mic itself (the GB DX has it's own gain knob right on the body of the mic) one is, in effect, turning down the sensitivity of the mic. This means that the volume of the bleed coming through the mic will be decreased. At the same time, the OP increases the gain on the mic channel on the PA mixer, so that the actual PA volume of the vocal channel is not decreased but stays the same. The combination of the two means that the PA volume is not affected, but the chances for feedback are lessened because of the lowered effective sensitivity of the mic.

G.

 

[moresound]

Just be sure and turn the stage monitors off when using the GB that should help a lot.

 

[NYMorningstar]

I'm not sure which part of the gain solution thing is throwing you. Here's the idea again: By adjusting the gain down on the mic itself (the GB DX has it's own gain knob right on the body of the mic) one is, in effect, turning down the sensitivity of the mic. This means that the volume of the bleed coming through the mic will be decreased. At the same time, the OP increases the gain on the mic channel on the PA mixer, so that the actual PA volume of the vocal channel is not decreased but stays the same. The combination of the two means that the PA volume is not affected, but the chances for feedback are lessened because of the lowered effective sensitivity of the mic.

G.

The part I'm having trouble with is the loop.

My understanding of it: Feedback is a result of the condition created from a signal received by a mic, amplified and sent to a loudspeaker, picked up by the mic again and amplified again, yada yada yada...causing positive feedback. It's dependant on the resonance frequencies of the equipment, the room the pickup patterns and of the mic and speaker and the distance between them.

I was under the impression that I should use the amps in the preamps as opposed to those in the faders because they are better amps.

It's the first I've heard of a mics sensitivity issue. I didn't know that it was part of the equation. I didn't know that turning down a preamp and raising the fader would make a mic less sensitive. How does that work with a dynamic mic? Doesn't boosting the signal further down the line cause the same condition?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

It's the first I've heard of a mics sensitivity issue. I didn't know that it was part of the equation. I didn't know that turning down a preamp and raising the fader would make a mic less sensitive. How does that work with a dynamic mic? Doesn't boosting the signal further down the line cause the same condition?

I think where you might be getting confused is in the referring to the gain control that's built in to the microphone as the "preamp". It is not the same as the preamp behind the trim/input control on a mixer or an input gain on a stand-alone preamp. Those still exist, and the general "rules" regarding their use still hold. The built-in gain on the mic affects the output level of the mic, but make no mistake, regardless of where it's set, it is still sending out a "mic-level" (for lack of a better name offhand) signal that still requires preamplification at the mixer/preamp.

So when we turn the gain on the mic itself down, it's like decreasing the sensitivity of the mic, because the "volume" coming out of the mic itself is decreased. Because of this, he would then need to turn up the preamp/trim on the mixer just to keep the actual PA level the same.

Now, look at the loop: Mic --> Gear --> Speaker --> Mic etc.
What's coming out of the speaker volume-wise is not changing, but what's coming out of the mic is. The effect of what is coming out of the mic being less is seen to the loop overall as the same as there not being as much sound going into the mic. From the POV of the loop, it's like turning down the volume on the mains and the mons without actually having to turn down the volume on the mains an the mons.

And BTW, the 520DX ( the current model of GB) *IS* a dynamic mic.

G.

 

[NYMorningstar]

When you say sensitivity do you mean how well the mic converts the acoustic pressure to output voltage as in transduction gain or the sensitivity of an amp circuit in the mic itself or a combo of them?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm not seeing how turning down the signal in one place and then turning it up in another is changing the feedback loop.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Geez, NYM, I'm running out of ways to try to explain it. It's a lot simpler than you're parsing it out to be. What I mean is you're turning the volume down on the mic, therefore the volume of any bleed that might get through is reduced. And when that's reduced, the chances for feedback are reduced.

I don't have a schematic for a GB DX handy, so technically exactly what's happening inside the mic as far as exactly where the gain is attenuated I cannot tell you. Nor does it matter for the sake of this conversation. The key is when the volume of the signal going from the front of the mic to the wires coming out of the back of it is reduced, the volume of the bleed making it through is reduced as well. And when that is reduced, the chances for feedback are reduced.

The reason it works is because of *where* the turn ups and turn downs are happening. Think about it for a minute (but not too hard ); the volume at the speakers remains the same, but the volume at the mic is lower. That means that the overall volume thru the loop is lower.

It's no different in effect than swapping that mic for the cardioid; both will have the effect of reducing the bleed volume coming out of the mic. The only difference is the reason in one case is because you're changing polar patterns in order to decrease the bleed volume, and in the other you're turning a knob to reduce the bleed volume.

G.