Golden Age Premier PREQ-73 proper connection doubt

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Lemec

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Hi,

I'v recently purchased the Golden Age Premier PREQ-73 (Neve 1073 clone) (Golden Age Premier PREQ-73 – Thomann Portuguesa) as my first mic/bass/agtr preamp.

My current home studio setup consists of;

Phonic PPC900E Power Conditoner

Avid Digi003 Console Audio Interface

AKG C-314 Condenser Mic

Several Guitars and Basses along 2 electro-acoustic guitars.

DAW is ProTools HD 12

I connected my GAP PREQ-73 to the input 5 of my IO (since inputs 1-4 of the Digi003 have their own pres and i'm under the impression that it's not a good idea to cascade pres)) with the +4 pad activated thru a balanced XLR (Klotz and Neutrick) to 1/4 Jack.

I recorded several VoiceOver works to test the GAP and i had to dial the input to +60 and almost 2 o'clock in the Output Gain ( the EQ section was not activated) to achieve what i consider to be the proper Gain Staging for the recording.

To my surprise I noticed quite an amount of noise thru out the all recording (kind of noise-floor or electrical noise) altho i have the Phonic to deal with that.

All cables are new and custom made by a local pro.

I would most appreciate any advice or feedback regarding this issue i'm having since i might be doing something wrong.

Thank you in advance for any help,
Lemec
 
Could you post a link to the raw track (from your project audio files, not a bounce/export), posted on Dropbox or similar?

I have a Pre-73 and use it with a couple different condenser mics - I probably use some similar settings, though I haven't used it with my C214 lately. (The closest thing I have to your mic.) I just looked at the Pre-72, and with the Miktek C300 I have plugged in the settings are 55 and probably closer to 2:30 on output gain. Haven't noticed what I'd call noticeable noise. (I'm plugged into a Focusrite Pro 26 which has no switch for line level, but can accept up to +28dBu, so is in that +4dB range, if I understand all these different yardsticks...)

Do you get the same kind of noise when using it as a DI?

And the C314 has no noise when plugged into a mic channel on the Avid?

I assume the 1/4" *plug* is TRS (balanced, as well)? I suppose there's always a problem with the cable, so it never hurts to try a different cable. You could even use a guitar cable (unbalanced) temporarily to see if that makes a difference. The level will probably drop a bit, but noise should be the relatively the same if it is not a cable problem.
 
Hi Keith,

Thank you for your interest and kind reply.

I have not yet used the GAP PREQ-73 as a DI and yes, the 1/4 jack is TRS (balanced and new)

Here is a link to 2 audio samples (one with the mic connected to the DIGI003 pre and another one with the mic thru the GAP-PREQ-73 thru a line input of the DIGI003) in Mp3 Mono 320 Kbps 24/48 format. Thee GAP was at 50 in the input section and 3 o'clock in the output gain (no eq engaged only teh 48v of course).

MyAirBridge.com | Send or share big files up to 20 GiB for free

Can you check it and tell me if that's normal ?

Thank you again,
Lemec
 
I'm not hearing a huge difference though I can *see* a little more noise in the wave, assuming the big bumps in both files are something picked up by the mic itself. They both measure about -59dB in the first part when playing them in Logic, with a jump to -44dB at the ends.

Did you look for the raw audio files?
 
No...those were fresh recordings i just made to A/B as you suggested.

Wasn't it suppose to have less "noise" ?

Do you find that level of noise (-59Db) normal and acceptable under these conditions ?
 
Sorry for delay - been a little busy.

Now, I don't know the proper way to test this, but in my home mix (and occasional recording) space, -60dB is probably the best I could hope for. In the few minutes I just spent trying to set something up, the airplanes and distant truck noise made even that a quixotic quest...

So, short answer, I wouldn't expect the Pre-73 to really be any quieter than an interface preamp, and I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been a tiny bit noisier, TBH. After all, it's primary selling point is to provide color. I don't think they even publish a noise spec for the thing.

I just set a SDC in front of a cheap Behritone 5" speaker with some pink noise running through it, with the pink noise measuring about 75dB on my iPhone app. Recorded a track with the Pre-73 Gain at 55 and Output as 12:00. Adjusted the line in level on the (combo jack) input of a channel on my Focusrite so it was showing -12dB in Logic Pro X for that track and recorded with the noise on, and then off. I did the same thing with the same mic but plugged directly into the Focusrite and adjusted the channel gain so the track in Logic was also -12dB. Here are the raw tracks. I did not normalize, but they are pretty much the same to my ear/eye.

Dropbox - SDC-Gap73.wav

Dropbox - SDC-Frite-micpre.wav
 
Lemec said:
Hi,

I'v recently purchased the Golden Age Premier PREQ-73 (Neve 1073 clone) (Golden Age Premier PREQ-73 – Thomann Portuguesa) as my first mic/bass/agtr preamp.


Lemec
Click to expand...

Just my 2 cents, I had the GA PRE-73, I thought it was a great unit for the price. From what I remember it had a little noise but nothing to stress over. I think the sound it delivers makes up for it. I've read nothing but good things about the unit you have. Good luck!

It (a little hiss) should be WELL below the signal you are recording. If you are hearing something during a strong signal, then something might be wrong.
 
With that Mic you don't need more gain...its very sensitive and can pick up sounds easily at 20mv/pa. (compared to a SM7b at 1.2mv/pa)

With that preamp you are probably adding some noise compared to the 003, which has 4 Mic inputs.
Using the Line Inputs should work fine too, using a Mic In doesn't ruin anything Ive been told, its just acting like a pad.

If you aren't going for some transformer/overdrive, it wouldn't surprise me if you don't hear much difference and maybe some added noise as more electronic stuff is added in the loop/chain. Transformer for one, etc....

Solid State is the Uber clean, imo… and you already have that with the 003. Ive tried a lot of stuff at home and find it isnt some huge-wow moment and question a lot of the hype, or at least my application of the unit isn't making anything become a wow-upgrade.

SPEC 003
THD + N
Microphone/Line inputs and Line: 0.0007%

Mic Inputs
Connector: Four balanced XLR jacks
Mic Phantom Power: 48V
Equivalent Input Noise: -129dBu
Frequency Response: ± 0.1dB, 20Hz - 20kHz
Dynamic Range: 105dB / 107dB A-weighted
THD + N: 0.0007% (-103dB)
Mic EIN: -129dBu
Input Sensitivity: +2.2dBu
Input Impedance: 2KÎ
Gain Range: +18 - +65dB

Also written as a "discrete preamp" on the 003...when the era was transistors and caps were more vibe than IC only. (but cheaper than transformers and tubes)...DISCRETE Component Era.

:eatpopcorn:
 
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I was watching some YT vids just recently and the statement was made that good mic preamps are not going to introduce enough self-noise to worry about and that condenser mic's self-noise will always exceed the preamp noise. (Again, assuming a good preamp.)

All of this usually becomes irrelevant for home (or live/location) recorders because the ambient noise is usually our bigger problem, though it may only matter if you've got some spots of dead silence in your mixes (IMO/IME). Of course, constant noise (e.g. from HVAC or something else) that's obvious can be causing other problems though, so you want to get your ambient noise under control. (The audible ambient noise in those little clips I posted is actually that Behringer speaker buzzing softly :) - it's still down about -57dB, but it would typically be a hair quieter typically in my tiny room).
 
keith.rogers said:
I was watching some YT vids just recently and the statement was made that good mic preamps are not going to introduce enough self-noise to worry about and that condenser mic's self-noise will always exceed the preamp noise. (Again, assuming a good preamp.)

All of this usually becomes irrelevant for home (or live/location) recorders because the ambient noise is usually our bigger problem, though it may only matter if you've got some spots of dead silence in your mixes (IMO/IME). Of course, constant noise (e.g. from HVAC or something else) that's obvious can be causing other problems though, so you want to get your ambient noise under control. (The audible ambient noise in those little clips I posted is actually that Behringer speaker buzzing softly :) - it's still down about -57dB, but it would typically be a hair quieter typically in my tiny room).
Click to expand...

If they mean purely electronic self noise Keith I think they are wrong. There are some phenomenally quiet cap' mics around now. If they mean the combined room and electronic noise? Well that is a cross all us hammy bodgers have to bear!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
If they mean purely electronic self noise Keith I think they are wrong. There are some phenomenally quiet cap' mics around now. If they mean the combined room and electronic noise? Well that is a cross all us hammy bodgers have to bear!
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Top mic pres are -120dB - was just looking at one that said -129dB. I'd have to think that's about as truly noiseless as anything could be. But we agree, once you set up in almost any room, there's a whole lot of other noise around us that makes preamp, and likely mic self-noise, moot, unless you are trying to record the flutter of butterfly wings, perhaps.
 
What is Self-Noise (or Equivalent Noise Level)?

That ^ gives the downlow on self noise. The very best LDCs can get below 10dBA (Lewitt claim 0dBA for one model!) and they suggest the very best a mic pre and dynamic can do is 18dBA but do admit that anything lower than 20dBA is easily good enough for most applications.

My AKG P150s are nowt special but I get a noise floor on a good day better than -70dBfs. Or more correctly a good NIGHT! Son used to record in the wee smalls, before the pigeons got up.

Dave.
 
In the 1980's we had a single channel strip from a Trident console, we ran into a 1/2" tape 8 multitrack. Man that rig was noisy, but it sounded awesome once you put a signal through it. We learned not to record dead space. We weren't a metal band screaming through it, but we didn't do real quiet acoustic material either.
 
And, once again we have different noise specs for different components, so how do you make sense of it all? I found this page to be helpful, where it compares (or converts) mic self-noise with (to) noise floor (dBu). About halfway down there's a section on Noise, which tries to make sense of it. It confirms, more or less, the generality I heard expressed that dynamic mics have no noise to worry about, while condenser mic's self-noise typically exceeds that of a good preamp. So, I'll concede some mics, might beat some pres, in general, most won't - if you believe this table, of course!

Selecting Mic Preamps

And, to bend [MENTION=178786]rob aylestone[/MENTION]'s (made elsewhere IIRC) and [MENTION=200831]Peter Pavlonis[/MENTION]'s points a bit,trying to make decisions based on specs alone is really nonsense.
 
Peter Pavlonis said:
In the 1980's we had a single channel strip from a Trident console, we ran into a 1/2" tape 8 multitrack. Man that rig was noisy, but it sounded awesome once you put a signal through it. We learned not to record dead space. We weren't a metal band screaming through it, but we didn't do real quiet acoustic material either.
Click to expand...

interesting.... I know when I get too far down the hole on noise obsession, sometimes tossing on a drum track makes the noise seem irrelevant.
 
Sorry Keith, cannot agree that specs don't tell you what you need to know. However! The specs have to be honest and well written.

One specification, vital IMO, is rarely given for AIs is the level needed at mic and line inputs for say, -20dBFS*. The OUTput from line jacks is more frequently given but not always.
Armed with that number we can then easily see how useful an AIs mic pre will be with say a 57/58 because we know those mics, and most other dynamics, put out a bit over a mV (-60dBV) . The actual gain of the preamp matters little, it is whether it can get to neg 20 or so with common acoustic signals, folkesy/ballad level vocals, acousic guitar. Speech can be a test of system noise but then so is getting the normal HR space quiet enough.

All the newcomer needs to know is. Get a decent mic, capacitor or dynamic. Plug it into almost any AI made in the last 3years or so and you will not have either a noise or an overload problem...Except certain people with certain voice, e.g. our opera singer in another thread.

IF! You have a problem with that kit there is something wrong. Probably you!

*The newb may not know that a clip that reads "-20dBfs" in one DAW will read exactly the same in any other (AFAIK and as far as I have checked this in a good 1/2doz DAWs) Thus, we have a...T'DAH!! "world industry standard" and IMO equipment makers should make vastly better use of it!

Dave.

Dave.
 
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ecc83 said:
Sorry Keith, cannot agree that specs don't tell you what you need to know. However! The specs have to be honest and well written.
....
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The operative phrase in my comment was "based on specs alone" Dave. Of course they provide useful information, but they don't tell you everything and cannot tell you how you (or anyone else) will actually sound in your space/studio with their unique voice and technique.

Yes, if you look at two frequency response curves and know how they were measured, and you sing in the consistent volume of the frequency sweep applied and perfectly on-axis at the same distance, you can say that the bump in mic X's curve vs. Y's will have a similar impact on your voice, but many of us don't do that because we have to sing much closer to reduce (relatively) ambient noise and we find out that proximity effect of the mics matters more than a 1dB bump at 8kHz, and that wasn't in the spec. (Never mind the head bobbing around and turning to look at the guitar fingerboard or keyboard while we're singing!)

I'm just saying that we sometimes just get augered in on nits in the specs that really have not much to do with the results we can obtain in our imperfect little [real] worlds.

P.S. Noise is important! But, again, compared to the lawn guys working next door, the least of my concerns :).
 
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