Getting rid of that brittle under-bridge pick up sound on amplified acoustic guitars.

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Armistice

Armistice

Son of Yoda
Any hints?

I have a particular dislike of the sound that most acoustic guitars with onboard pickups make when you plug them in to an amp / PA. Now that I find myself in a dual acoustic guitar duo, I'm trying to find a way to lessen that "brittle" sound in live performance (ie. ain't trying to record them... know how to do that...).

I've tried various things, such as putting it into a valve guitar amp on the distorted channel although without any actual distortion and SM57ing the amp back into the desk - sort of adds an interesting rougher flavour.

Also tried putting it into a channel strip pre-amp with "tube saturation" (yeah, yeah) to see if I could tame it - sort of works too... a bit...

Thought maybe you very smart people might have some other ideas I could try.

I should add that the guitar goes to an effects pedal which has L / R outs. And that a new guitar / pickup etc are not an option. :eek:

Thanks in advance...
 
Well, you didn't say which pickup you are using, but there are a number of different possibilities. All of them depending, of course, on which set of compromises you want to make. If you need volume, you are probably going to have to deal with some degree of quack. However, you can improve the situation by using certain models of pickup. One of the big problems is that the typical 9V preamps don't really have enough headroom, and as a result the high end information tends to get distorted, which is what makes it quacky. The D-TAR pickups (the Timbre-Line, or the Wavelength) run on 18V, and are MUCH better in this respect, but at the same time they are very bright pickups. Some people find them too bright; but I find that, while bright, the high end is very smooth and pleasant, so I don't mind. Of course, if you don't have a D-TAR pickup, that doesn't help much. There are other preamps which can be used at 18V too - Bartolini makes a really nice one.

Another possibility is to use a passive pickup - preferably one that isn't under the saddle. The one I've been selling a lot of lately is the K&K Pure Western Mini. They don't have much of the quack, but unfortunately they have much lower output before feedback because, not being under the pressure of the saddle, they are much less sensitive to the vibration of the strings, and more sensitive to the vibration of the top. Of course, the same thing that makes them more prone to feedback is what makes them sound more complex, and less quacky. Bitch, isn't it?

As for setups that don't include a new pickup, you could try a really nice preamp - such as a pendulum, but if you are using a 9V preamp, the distortion which is causing the quack is already there, so it's not going to help much. You might also try a nice DI, like a Radial J48. But if the pickup has already got a sound you don't like, then putting a nice piece of iron after it is just going to be lipstick on a pig, you know?

The real thing, of course, is that the whole upper midrange quacky thing isn't always a problem. Most of the people who use these things are playing in situations where they are not the whole picture. Most commonly they are used in churches, in situations where there is also an electric guitar or two, a bass player, a drummer, a keyboard player or two, maybe even an organ player with their Leslie blasting away, and of course a sound guy who is about 16 and has no idea how to use an EQ. At least, most of the ones I sell are used that way. And in that situation, and mostly percussive sound with limited frequency range is a very good thing indeed, because it will fit into the mix without forcing the "sound guy" to actually use his ears. Not so great when you are playing solo in a coffee shop, but there you have it. In all fairness, most of your audience is so used to quacky acoustic guitars they will never know the difference.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Q: How do you get rid of that brittle under-bridge pickup sound?
A: Get rid of that brittle under-bridge pickup.

Other solutions to reducing quack:
- a DI with a very high input impedance, like 10Megohms or higher
- a parametric EQ or sweepable notch filter
 
Victory Pete said:
I have read that Jimmy Page often put microphones in his Martin.
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Good for him if he does. The nature and type of vibration found inside an acoustic guitar is mileS from the sound you hear when you hear it as you normally do.

The last place you want to mic an acoustic is inside the enclosure.
 
My Martin has a Fishman pickup that allows me to blend between a piezo and a built-in soundhole mic. I'll say that while it does help make the sound more natural and it certainly is an improvement over a pure piezo, it's also a pretty far cry from what a good mic can do in a proper position.
 
muttley600 said:
Good for him if he does. The nature and type of vibration found inside an acoustic guitar is mileS from the sound you hear when you hear it as you normally do.

The last place you want to mic an acoustic is inside the enclosure.
Click to expand...

Any method of recording sound sources in a studio is usually not the sound you would hear normally. That is part of the whole illusion of recording. That is what makes it an artform.
VP:D
 
Victory Pete said:
Any method of recording sound sources in a studio is usually not the sound you would hear normally. That is part of the whole illusion of recording. That is what makes it an artform.
VP:D
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that the OP was talking about a live playing situation, which is always problematic for acoustic guitar if you need it to be very loud.
 
Thanks for the thoughts people....

I am indeed talking about a live situation, not a recording one... don't need too much volume though.

I'll arse around with the eq a bit more - I'm also very aware that what sounds good in my loungeroom and what will sound good in a normal playing environment like a pub / bar are different beasts and that I'll need to cut through the hubbub a bit.

It's not a bad sound, it's just that I've not yet found one a sound from this type of pickup that I like. My playing partner has a Martin D16 with an after market pickup installed going through a Fishman Platinum Pro-EQ and I'm getting a better sound than that..

I'm playing a Maton Messiah with an AP5 onboard pickup. I didn't mention it because I know you guys are largely unfamiliar with these guitars, being Australian made... The AP5 pickup, if you read the blurb on the web anyway, is regarded as pretty good as these things go... but I just don't like the sound ANY of these things make.

I take Light's point about the 9V battery type pickup too, which this is. I'll keep playing around - I have lots of options as I have it going through a reasonably good effects pedal, a reasonably good preamp, a very good amp etc... sure I can get something I'm happy with.

Cheers
 
I'm using K&K Pure Western Minis Through a Fishman Aura Preamp. I'm pretty happy with the results.
 
The Dean Markley ProMag are terrific sounding, and quite affordable...you can have all three flavors for less than the cost of any decent electric pickup.

I currently have the ProMag Gold and ProMag Plus...and I like them so much that I will add the ProMag Grand too.

http://www.deanmarkley.com/Pickups/ProMag.shtml

I may never again mic an acoustic!

Of course....they only work on metal strings...so if you play with nylon strings, then you need something else.
 
Big Kenny said:
Hey Light, thoughts on the Schertler blue stick?
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I haven't tried it.


Victory Pete said:
I am about to finally buy one of these, I know you have to tame the feedback but it wont sound like those harsh Piezo pickups.
VP
http://www.acousticon.com/soundholemicsl.htm
Click to expand...

muttley600 said:
The last place you want to mic a guitar from is inside the enclosure.
Click to expand...

I can think of no way of amplifying an acoustic guitar that sounds worse to me than a microphone inside the guitar. For my own use, I would never, EVER, use a internal mic.

Oh, one other solution I forgot to mention - a really good magnetic pickup, like a Sunrise. It's a very different sound, but it's not quacky.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
I can think of no way of amplifying an acoustic guitar that sounds worse to me than a microphone inside the guitar. For my own use, I would never, EVER, use a internal mic.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...
Ditto
Oh, one other solution I forgot to mention - a really good magnetic pickup, like a Sunrise. It's a very different sound, but it's not quacky.
Click to expand...
Ditto again but I have a preference for some of the others available. The only reason I didn't respond is because the OP said he didn't want to spend out on new gear. Frankly that is the only solution to get rid of the quack that ALL undersaddles are prone to. That and a dedicated amp.
 
A cheap and simple solution is to run the pickup output into a sansamp type device. The Behringer BDI21 (bass sansamp clone) is only $30 has enough tone shaping options that you can really dial out that quacky sound. It won't give you a "pure" acoustic tone, but that's hard to get live for the reasons already outlined.

I've liked the sounds of the K&K Pure Western Mini that I've heard, also. Probably will get one installed on my main Acoustic/Electric someday soon.
 
I bought one of these:

http://accessories.musiciansfriend....303132&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=26021982

I don't use it very often, so about the time I get it tweaked the way I like it, the gig's over and I throw it in my bag and the knobs get moved. :(

I don't know if it's good or not. I use it for the guitar I have with a piezo strat bridge. I can dial that thing in and make it sound like an acoustic. Well, like an ovation, which doesn't really sound like an acoustic.

But without it, it sounds like 4 pounds of dogshit in a kroger bag. So if you already sound like fewer pounds of dogshit as a starting point, you may be able to get a sound you can tolerate.
 
Armistice said:
Any hints?

I have a particular dislike of the sound that most acoustic guitars with onboard pickups make when you plug them in to an amp / PA. Now that I find myself in a dual acoustic guitar duo, I'm trying to find a way to lessen that "brittle" sound in live performance (ie. ain't trying to record them... know how to do that...)
Click to expand...

Try an integrating (first-order, low-pass) filter. It will roll off the sound at 6 dB/octave. I use that on my Ovation and it sounds much better. However, it still doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the Ovation actually sounds out in front of the guitar.

Anyway, the filter is just the proper resistor wired in series with the signal with the right (non-polarized) capacitor wired in parallel. If you have a line level signal, a 10K resistor and 0.22 uF (microFarad) capacitor will work fine. If you have a high impedance signal, a 470Kohm resistor and .0047 uF (4700 pF or picoFarad) cap will do, but the noise level will be higher.

The good news is: the price is right. Just need a little project box, an input jack, an output jack and the components.

Try it... it will help a bunch. OTOH, the K & K will probably sound better.

Cheers,

Otto
 
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