General Songwriting.

[dragonworks]

Thougts from an Idiot.

Songs can usually be broken down into sections. Intro, Chorus, Verse, Bridge,Solo etc.
Each section of a song should have its own Identity. A synchopation, stops, different key, beat, etc., something to seperate it from the rest of the song and give it its own unique groove and feel.
Kicks, stops, dynamics, retardations and anticipations, ect, are very small nuances when combinded together produce a song that is varied and interesting.
Starting out with a mediocre song and concentrating on examples above an average song can usually be "fleshed out" to render a B effort or better.

 

[Gidge]

thats all arrangement/production concepts, not necessarily a part of the actual songwriting.......

 

[Rodeo]

thats all arrangement/production concepts, not necessarily a part of the actual songwriting.......

It's all a rich tapestry

 

[dragonworks]

Starting out with a mediocre song and concentrating on examples above an average song can usually be "fleshed out" to render a B effort or better.


Maybe I should have said basic first draft of a song instead of what I said above.

 

[dragonworks]

thats all arrangement/production concepts, not necessarily a part of the actual songwriting.......

I finally try and contribute and say something intelligent that might just help somebody(you dont know how difficulst this is for me) and you have to come along and shoot me down.
I feel like a WWI Pilot I been shot down so many times.
Make my day why dont ya.

 

[Gidge]

I finally try and contribute and say something intelligent that might just help somebody(you dont know how difficulst this is for me) and you have to come along and shoot me down.
I feel like a WWI Pilot I been shot down so many times.
Make my day why dont ya.

that really wasnt my intent....i just gave an opinion.....

I consider myself a songwriter.....but just one listen to my mp3's in the Clinic show that i rarely get into a lot of production.....but i dont think that takes away from the quality (or lack thereof) of the writing......

so in closing, i agree 100% with your origianl post.....i was just giving my view of the terminology......

MIKE

 

[mikeh]

I agree with dragonworks that a well written song should have a logical flow from a verse to chorus, etc. etc. (which each part adding to the stucture and story line). In most cases the majority of the song "stucture" is developed in the writing & re-write process.

I also agree with Gidge that things like kicks, stops dynamics, etc can fall into an area which could be considered more arranging than writing.

However, I believe most writers (or at least writers who have developed certain understanding of song stucture) do tend to develop most of the arrangement (related to song structure) as part of the writing process.

I believe arranging tends to get more involved in deciding what guitar part plays what and where the keyboards enter, etc. etc.

Writing develops the song and arranging determines how the song will be performed (and naturally recorded - which then also involves "producing").

I think we can all agree that a good, well written song should be able to hold up to scrutiny even when performed by a singer/songwriter playing an accoustic guitar (with no other arrangements/production).

 

[Cyrokk]

Thougts from an Idiot.

Songs can usually be broken down into sections. Intro, Chorus, Verse, Bridge,Solo etc.
Each section of a song should have its own Identity. A synchopation, stops, different key, beat, etc., something to seperate it from the rest of the song and give it its own unique groove and feel.
Kicks, stops, dynamics, retardations and anticipations, ect, are very small nuances when combinded together produce a song that is varied and interesting.

This is one of those YMMV moments. I think in most cases a song has to keep its basic premise carried throughout its entirety. If the listener can mentally move through the changes smoothly, then the song does succeed in variation. If a song has jarring changes in dynamics or modulations, then the song just sounds like a medley of various pieces juxtaposed together with no thought whatsoever. But it all depends of course, on the style of music, the kind of impact you want to have on the listener, the style of lyrics (modulation works great with ballads), and a number of other factors...

Cy

 

[jef knight]

I'm of two opinion on this. A song does need to have a basic premise, musically.
But there are two types of songs, well, more that two, but these are the main two
you'll usually find.
The first type is the folk song type. It can be anything from Dylan to Dave Mathews, but it's basically
a guy telling a story using a guitar or piano (ala Tom Waits) to fill in the backdrop
of sound behind the story. The focus is on the storyand the guy telling it not the music.
The other kind is compositional. Here the story is important but the singer is
part of the greater musicscape. Even though it may still be played on a guitar
or piano the music is also telling part of the story, ala Tori Amos or Frank Zappa.

jef

 

[Fat_Satchel]

Ive always figured there are Lyrical arrangements and musical arrangements where the lyrical form considers the overall motion of the conceptual idea and how the lyrical message is presented, ie; past, present, future...imaging, form, etc...and musical arrangements would consider the "feel", energy and mood of the song as a finished product.

can I have a cookie now?