General Rock Mixing Guidelines in RMS..

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scottmd06

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I'm curious to know some good RMS values that you have found in mixing vocals to drums to bass to guitar that you tend to follow as your mixing outline..

Lets say for example (in terms of RMS):
Snare Drum "X" db louder than Kick Drum
Lead Vocals "X" db louder than snare
Guitars "X" db quieter than Lead Vocals
Bass "X" db louder/quiet than Kick Drum

I usually place Snare 1db above Kick, Bass 1db below Kick, Vocals 2db above Snare, and Guitars (hard panned) 2db above kick to start with, and then move around to taste...
 
I never heard of a "formula" for doing that...?

I mean...you throw up your faders rough like at the start of the mix, and then just use your ears to find the level balance.

Sometimes you need a little and sometimes you need a lot.... ;)
 
The best thing I've found to do is bring up the drums first. Then bring up the vocals. I always want my vocals to sit well with the drums.

From there, I bring in the bass. Guitar and other atmospheric sounds are last.

Try doing it with your monitor turned off so you aren't paying attention to decibels. Decibels will always be different depending on your monitor chain and your room, so unfortuneately, there is no solid way to have a formula for mixing rock music, or any music for that matter.
 
I start with the drums and set my stereo pair at nominal gain - "0" on the fader - then I bring up my snare and kick tracks to balance.

After the drums I'll bring in the bass and rhythm guitars...then my organ, piano, and other keys...and finally the vocals.
I'll deal with guitar leads and ear candy after the main portion of the mix is gellin'.

I find that when I set the drums at nominal gain...and adjust my control room listening level at my normal comfort level (80-85dB SPL C-weighted)...
...if I adjust my other elements without messing with the drum level anymore...
...all the other fader levels fall perfectly into place if I follow the general sequence I outlined above.
If I do it differently...then I end up doing a lot more up/down adjusting before things settle...and then usually end up in the same position that I can quickly get using the aforementioned fader sequence.
 
It's a balancing act, all sound is subjective and there is no given formula in my book. Every genre of music is mixed different and certain types of song withing each genre will have totaly different balances of instruments.

Stop looking at the meters and start using your ears.....if you have a pair.
 
I agree with most guys here. It really has to be done by ear. every song is
mixed differently. There can be some up-tempo songs where you want the drums
and bass loud and proud up the front, especially kick and snare. Other times
you might have a slower, more mellow song and you'll want the drums to
hold back a little and place the focus on more melodic instrumentation.

Not to mention the dynamic range of the instrument. You could have very
dynamic guitars in a rock song, how can you say that they're x-dB above
the kick or bass? You could have a rock solid bass line with an RMS of -10dBFS,
and a kick with an RMS of -14dBFS. If your fader level tells you the kick is 4dB
above the bass, its not really. It's theoretically the same level.

The second you go by formulas, meters, and other visual representation, is
the second your mixes could potentially go down the drain.

Sorry if this sounded a little antagonistic, I really didn't mean it that way.
Just trying to help :)
 
philbagg said:
I agree with most guys here. It really has to be done by ear. every song is
mixed differently. There can be some up-tempo songs where you want the drums
and bass loud and proud up the front, especially kick and snare. Other times
you might have a slower, more mellow song and you'll want the drums to
hold back a little and place the focus on more melodic instrumentation.

Not to mention the dynamic range of the instrument. You could have very
dynamic guitars in a rock song, how can you say that they're x-dB above
the kick or bass? You could have a rock solid bass line with an RMS of -10dBFS,
and a kick with an RMS of -14dBFS. If your fader level tells you the kick is 4dB
above the bass, its not really. It's theoretically the same level.

The second you go by formulas, meters, and other visual representation, is
the second your mixes could potentially go down the drain.

Sorry if this sounded a little antagonistic, I really didn't mean it that way.
Just trying to help :)
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I typed but it came out different ;)
 
scottmd06 said:
I'm curious to know some good RMS values that you have found in mixing vocals to drums to bass to guitar that you tend to follow as your mixing outline..

Lets say for example (in terms of RMS):
Snare Drum "X" db louder than Kick Drum
Lead Vocals "X" db louder than snare
Guitars "X" db quieter than Lead Vocals
Bass "X" db louder/quiet than Kick Drum

I usually place Snare 1db above Kick, Bass 1db below Kick, Vocals 2db above Snare, and Guitars (hard panned) 2db above kick to start with, and then move around to taste...
Click to expand...

In theory your routine is cool, and I wish all mixes where that easy. But the truth is no two sessions are ever alike. It's impossible to give everything a one size fits all. Believe me I've tried a million times. I learned to accept the "fresh angle" with every session I work on. Even if it's part of a series in a group.

This is really good for ear and *brain* coordination. Our ears are a function of our brain development. Good ears are no good without memory of what things should sound like. In other words, learn to remember tones for all instruments possible. Drums, guitars, basses...listen closely to your favorite albums. In time you don't even think about it anymore...you know exactly what to do.

a good trick is mixing at very low levels. It kina forces you to bring out better balance and impact by nature. You figure, if you can get to sound balanced, tight and kickin at a very low volume, then once you pump up the volume you should *potentially* have a fairly solid start.

Minimum acoustic interference between your room and the speakers, better balance assessment, plus, saves on your ears :D
 
LeeRosario said:
a good trick is mixing at very low levels. It kina forces you to bring out better balance and impact by nature. You figure, if you can get to sound balanced, tight and kickin at a very low volume, then once you pump up the volume you should *potentially* have a fairly solid start.
Click to expand...

I am going to pick this apart because you always seem to have thoughtful responses and seem to be a really nice person who has been doing it a long time. My question is, if you do this, won't it mess up your balance? Referring to the fletcher-munson curve, shouldn't you be mixing at a specific level that will bring balance from the lows to the highs? This is a serious question as I believe it to be true and it shapes what I do. I always figured if you mix at a low volume you will be all messed up when you turn it up.
 
Balance has always been the hardest thing for me to get....and it always seemed like some people were just "gifted" at it.... I am the guy who ends up tweaking it 100 times and is still never happy.....sucks.... anyway a lot of this is a matter of taste...I personally like things to be dynamic so my kick is the loudest, followed by snare and vocals, then guitar and cymbals, and finally bass. Someone else might like the exact reverse and I've heard all other combinations possible on the radio. A lot of it depends on decade. but definitely style...so there is truly no "right" way... but I would love to hear how people get there more QUICKLY because what I am doing sucks !
 
FALKEN said:
I am going to pick this apart because you always seem to have thoughtful responses and seem to be a really nice person who has been doing it a long time. My question is, if you do this, won't it mess up your balance? Referring to the fletcher-munson curve, shouldn't you be mixing at a specific level that will bring balance from the lows to the highs? This is a serious question as I believe it to be true and it shapes what I do. I always figured if you mix at a low volume you will be all messed up when you turn it up.
Click to expand...

That's a real good question. In my opinion, it's a yes with a situational no and I'll explain. It's a give and take type thing. This is something I learned from reading up on engineers like TChad Blake and Chris Lord Alge. It also applies more to general levels and not so much critical tone shaping, at least I think.

The idea with the flecther-munson curve is to chart the base point for an optimal listening level for a general population. I think we understand that part pretty well. The problem is that it dosnt take into account everyone's unique mixing situation. Fletcher-Munson is not an artistic measurement by far, strictly scientific. Biological mechanics if you will.

Unfortunately, most people are not aware (even professionals at times) of flaws in thier listening environment. Everything from standing waves, nodes, flutter echos, comb filtering...I mean the list goes on. Then there's the issue of monitor setup which involves everthing from the quality of the monitor to how well they actually reproduce together (in stereo or surround). So that's another issue.

So it's at that point that the optimal 83db goes right out the window for me. Ideally the 83db (give or take) that fletcher-mundson suggests is good, but it assumes that everything else that directly affects quality listening has been taken care of. You could find that turning up to 83db actually cuts out the bass completely from your mix because of some rogue standing wave you where never aware of.

So I advocate listening low to get a clearer picture of what's going on but with a few conditions:

-The listener must take into account that tone balance will act slightly differently a lower levels, however, that can also be a function of your listening situation (if you have subs or not, if the room sucks or not etc).

-It's understood that it's ok to turn crank it back up to see what you really have. In fact, think of monitoring levels as a dynamic process. Listen low for most of the time but crank it up to see if the energy translates.

-There's also the issue of speaker "compression". Some speakers actually compress a mix at higher levels, therefore give you a false representation of true dynamic, punch and power in the mix. You'll find that it sounds awesome at high levels but it becomes wimpy once you bring it down to nominal levels.

-The fletcher munson curve applies in an ideal situation. However, 90% of the time you wont have an ideal situation, so you have to find an angle to get the mix to work in that situation. No two speakers react exactly the same therefor fletcher munson applies more to how the human ear works in general and not so much to obtaining a "perfect" mix.


I personally am more of a heavy compressor type person, so i get my mixes to "stick" together better that way. But that's just my style and still I think I can always do better. Things I do in the box but only an SSL could pull off convincingly enough for me. That's the pain of perfectionism :D.
 
I also use the low level routine but I mix at usually a little lower than the 83db and then I'll check it at low levels to make sure nothing disappears, another thing to check mixes is to NOT be in the sweet spot, move around the room even with your back to the speakers, go to another room or into the hallway and see how things sit.

P.S. be glad there's not a formula, though I'm sure someone is trying to write a program... "push button A for rock mix, button b for jazz mix..."
 
ds21 said:
another thing to check mixes is to NOT be in the sweet spot, move around the room even with your back to the speakers, go to another room or into the hallway and see how things sit.
Click to expand...
If you do this and then change your mix to accomodate how it sounds outside the sweetspot or from outside your room wouldn't you be maximizing the deficiencies and interference of your room into your mix?

How mixes translate onto other systems at low and high volumes is a good way to check the balances too.
 
NYMorningstar said:
If you do this and then change your mix to accomodate how it sounds outside the sweetspot or from outside your room wouldn't you be maximizing the deficiencies and interference of your room into your mix?
Click to expand...
just use it as you would auratone or a boom box, just as another reference check.
 
jndietz said:
The best thing I've found to do is bring up the drums first. Then bring up the vocals. I always want my vocals to sit well with the drums.

From there, I bring in the bass. Guitar and other atmospheric sounds are last.

Try doing it with your monitor turned off so you aren't paying attention to decibels. Decibels will always be different depending on your monitor chain and your room, so unfortuneately, there is no solid way to have a formula for mixing rock music, or any music for that matter.
Click to expand...


exactly the same...though Ive only finished two tracks and its only worked 50% of the time so far lol :)
 
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