General Advice about a career in sound engineering

[dmjack]

Hello All,

I hope you are doing well. I am a brand new member. I just joined 5 minutes ago and I need advice about this career path in general. I am currently a Senior in college. I studied Software Engineering for the first three years and recently switched my major to IT due to stress and figuring out that I don't really like computer science anymore. On the contrary, I have always been interested in music production and sound design since I was 13 years old and have picked it up and put it aside because of school and because arts isn't really seen as a career path in my family.

Most recently, I have been making moves to invest in my passion which is learning sound design, production and engineering by buying the equipment I need and trying to learn this craft on my own. Because I know I have been denying my passion for this, I have recently become discouraged to even pursue it because of the lack of job opportunities in sound in general and I am stuck in making the decision of starting my own business, freelancing, producing for other artists or even becoming an artist myself. I have no idea which way is the "correct" way and I am just overwhelmed with fear and indecision. I took an internship at a fairly young record company owned by a seasoned engineer and I didn't like it at all. I cleaned more than I actually learned anything. My mom says she can definitely see me doing this as a career; I am kind of nervous about it also because I am a female and I don't have many female success stories that motivate me, except probably WondaGurl and Bjork. I am also discouraged because the general advice says not to attend school for a craft like this which is understandable, especially after doing research and finding that most programs are kind of "scam-my". I am stuck.

Do I keep trying to learn what I'm doing?
How do I get my foot in the door if I wanted to do sounds for movies or cartoons?
Is starting a business or becoming an artist the only way to get some sort of recognition in this day and age?
What keeps you moving forward?

This is my passion and being paid for my passion would be great too because I still have to survive. Any kind of advice would be helpful to me now. Thank you for taking the time to answer.

 

[Pinky]

I work in IT (now a project manager and engineer, previously a technician and analyst) after studying English Lit in college. You don't need a degree in IT, but a few certs and intership experience would help you get a foot in the door somewhere. It's a tight job market but not impossible for those with analytical talent.

As for music production as a career?... unlikely. I've thought about the same thing, issue is unseating those already holding down the few needed jobs. It's not a growing industry, so to say the competition is fierce is an understatement. Luck would have more to do with your outcome than skill/credentials. At least with IT you have a lot of control over your destiny, and even without a dream job you'd be able to pay bills with a help desk job until something better came along. I would be concerned there would be no job waiting for you with a music degree/training, and you'd be right back to today wishing you had those IT skills.

Talent and passion aren't a guarantee you can get a job in whatever field. Focus job choices around feeding yourself while also balancing those choices around doing what you want with your free time. It's called compromise, and most people have to at some point. A long time friend is struggling to find continuing work in the movie industry after 15+ years. He may be going back to DJ'ing or teaching. He was so close. But you can't feed yourself if you aren't pulling a paycheck and no one needs you. Just the reality of most people's lives. Dreams are fantasy, and the notion of pursuing them fleeting when you have bills.

 

[ausrock]

Wise words from Pinky.

I took an internship at a fairly young record company owned by a seasoned engineer and I didn't like it at all. I cleaned more than I actually learned anything.

History seems to dictate that "internships" in studios, particularly in the early stages involve menial duties.

My mom says she can definitely see me doing this as a career;

What, cleaning??? Sorry but get used to it, it is an unfortunate fact of life regardless of ones' career.

You haven't said whether you play an instrument or sing, etc., and if so, given any details of your experience, etc. The unfortunate fact is, that there has been a decline in the studio business over quite a number of years and consequently, the openings for employment have disappeared as well.

Can you realise your dream............possibly.

 

[DM60]

I would suggest, take your love of sound engineering, combine it with video and learn how to create online content. From doing videos for commercials, to promoting local bands. One will pay the bills while the other will feed the beast of your love.

Doing those three things well (video, sound and web technology) could be your path forward. If you really want to get into some cool stuff, learn the technology to transform sound and visual to the stage. These EDM guys really have some cool stage shows going on and it just keeps getting better and bigger.

I think you can do it, but not like the old days, visual, sound and technology would be the path forward. IMO.

 

[mjbphotos]

How happy will you be as a semi-starving artist-type for 10-15 years? Get a "real world" job that pays the bills than pursue the audio/video/sound career in your off time.

 

[Ronbert]

The fact that we can now accomplish recordings in our basements with gear in the few thousand dollar range that took special studios in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to million dollar ranges 20 years ago suggests that the large studios will be reduced in number if not completely extinguished.

That's not a recipe for employment in a big studio. It's a recipe for a hobby one pursues outside of their day job.

There are also some fairly discouraging trends in the music/artist world where the money for artists has gone down and the recording labels are struggling to find ways to make money and stay alive.

The world of music and recording has changed and will keep on changing.

The world in general is changing quickly - just ask your fellow IT folks what they thought they'd be learning/doing when they started vs what IT is now.

 

[miroslav]

You should contact Women's Audio Mission out in SF.
They promote/help young women in the audio production fields. They may be able to at least provide you with info and suggestions.

http://www.womensaudiomission.org/

That said...man or woman...it's NOT easy 1.) getting a good paying job in audio...or 2.) starting your own audio biz.
Most people starve for years going down either path. The fact that audio production education has somewhat exploded in recent years doesn't help any. There are WAY more people like you looking for a way into the biz.

IT isn't all that stress free either.
The job is almost always about troubleshooting or preventing problems for the most part, and very analytical. If you are more artsy in you heart and head, you may not (?) like it.
That said...it pays well and there's no shortage of jobs, and if you find the right IT work that fits your persona, you can do that for a steady paycheck, and use it to fund your audio interests. No need to starve just to play with audio.

 

[DainBramaged]

You'd have a much better shot at doing live sound for a living. I did it for 15 years and it was a great experience and worked with a lot of great bands.

If you like to travel you can try to get on a tour. Long days though. Be prepared to work a lot.

Don't know where you live but the best way is to go to a place around you that does live sound and talk to them.

 

[RFR]

I took an internship at a fairly young record company owned by a seasoned engineer and I didn't like it at all. I cleaned more than I actually learned anything.

You had a shot. More than most. In La. there are people lined up to intern (clean) to get a foot in the door.

Sorry, but it's about paying dues.

How do I get my foot in the door if I wanted to do sounds for movies or cartoons?

Go to a big city get to know people, get a foot in the door and don't ever walk out.

You have to make yourself indespensable.
if that involves cleaning, or making the best coffee in the world, or coiling cables exactly like your boss likes, the game is to make yourself indespensable. Almost so they can't function without you.

Getting in the door is the tough part. Staying inside the door is when the work starts.
Its not always what you want to do, but is what is needed. And if you don't want to do it, there is a long list of people happy to get the chance.

Remember, in the real world no one cares about your education. It means nothing.

Delivering what is needed and wanted means everything.


In my line of work, I've had a few " interns"

I always picked the one who was willing over the one that was educated. Ones who were willing to sweep the floor, fetch coffe, lunch, etc were the ones that stayed to actually learn the craft. The "educated" ones were always too good for that and had an attitude of entitlement, thinking they knew what they were doing, which in the real world just wasn't true.

Good luck to you. It's a rough and tough industry. But dedication, perseverance, and hard work can pay off.

 

[Bobbsy]

You mention sound design for movies and cartoons more than music studio work and this difference might be significant.

There's no single way to get into the industry--being in the right place at the right time can play a big part.

My career (I'm retired now) involved many years working on the sound side of television--and then (when I was promoted into management) I started getting involved in theatre sound design.

My way of getting in was a Fine Arts degree majoring in TV and Film production--this came under the Department of Drama at the particular university I went to so I had a claim to some theatre training as well. After uni, I found work at small TV stations (doing a bit of everything) but gradually moved to larger facilities where I could specialise more on the areas I preferred--sound mixing and editing.

Now that we live in a digital world, your IT qualifications should be a real boon. However, I might suggest that you look for a formal course that covers audio design and mixing for film and TV. This needn't be a full university degree course--a year or two at a technical college would probably be better. If you were in the UK, I might suggest the production course at Ravensbourne College or maybe the Tonmeister course at the University of Surrey--but you'll need to research what's near you.

Once you've got the basic skills (and a piece of paper saying you have them) you'll have a good chance of a junior level job at a smaller production company. By junior, I don't mean floor mopping intern...but neither will you be mixing feature films in your first week. However, depending where you live, you may have to move to a city that has a range of audio or film/TV production facilities.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific but I can say that, if you are lucky enough to get into the industry, it can be rewarding and worthwhile.

 

[Pinky]

You mention sound design for movies and cartoons more than music studio work and this difference might be significant.

There's no single way to get into the industry--being in the right place at the right time can play a big part.

This is very true, television and streaming companies (Hulu, Netflix, HBO, etc) are definitely not shrinking their workforce, especially since they started coming up with their own content a few years ago. This still only accounts for a very limited number of audio tech specific jobs available, but this is a source I wasn't thinking of.

Emphasis still being placed on the 'luck' aspect though. On one hand, you can say if you don't try and aren't there luck can't happen. Similar to people who buy lottery tickets. In the final analysis it's still just gambling though. I say, hedge your bets and pick a career with the best odds. Otherwise you'll just end up back to square one getting a 'real' (widely marketable) skill set, and with time lost you could have already been moving up in that career.

 

[Bobbsy]

This is very true, television and streaming companies (Hulu, Netflix, HBO, etc) are definitely not shrinking their workforce, especially since they started coming up with their own content a few years ago. This still only accounts for a very limited number of audio tech specific jobs available, but this is a source I wasn't thinking of.

It's worth saying that the companies you list, while "producing" lots of high quality stuff, don't actually do the technical stuff themselves. On set audio is done by several different companies who provide freelancers (I think they have at least 3 units shooting in Europe and North Africa) and audio post production is handled by five or six companies on both sides of the Atlantic. The trick is to get in with one of the production companies. Alas, the ones I know about and have contacts at are all in London, not the USA.

 

[Pinky]

It's worth saying that the companies you list, while "producing" lots of high quality stuff, don't actually do the technical stuff themselves. On set audio is done by several different companies who provide freelancers (I think they have at least 3 units shooting in Europe and North Africa) and audio post production is handled by five or six companies on both sides of the Atlantic. The trick is to get in with one of the production companies. Alas, the ones I know about and have contacts at are all in London, not the USA.

And further highlights the underlying issue - there's a handful of companies and techs doing much of the work. Consolidation creates less 'waste', but by trimming the 'fat' (people).

 

[Bobbsy]

Actually it sort of goes the other way.

While 30 years ago there were a relatively small number of "do everything" production facilities, the trend is now to a lot more smaller specialist companies handling things like editing and audio post. This give a lot more chances to break into the industry--though obviously you have to be in a place that does a lot of production--London, New York, LA, etc.

 

[DM60]

Actually it sort of goes the other way.

While 30 years ago there were a relatively small number of "do everything" production facilities, the trend is now to a lot more smaller specialist companies handling things like editing and audio post. This give a lot more chances to break into the industry--though obviously you have to be in a place that does a lot of production--London, New York, LA, etc.

About 6 years ago, my nephew graduated from film school in Missouri, needless to say, not where one thinks it was looking good in a career in film starting from there. The kid packs up his stuff, moves to New York (not LA which would have been the obvious choice), got himself a rig for major film editing, worked as a gopher (back end crew, running mics, so forth and so on), started doing contract work for National Geographic, History Channel, advertising agencies, etc. Now he works full time for SNL and Seth Meyers.

He is not a star, but he does what he wants to do, soon he may be able to start doing TV films and then maybe movies. To your point Bobbsy, it can be done, just takes effort and sacrifice.

 

[Bobbsy]

Very true.

And there are some very specialist jobs cropping up. A fellow who used to work for me in our little studio where we did the weather invested in a high quality monitor and some gear that allows him to adjust colour balance and he's carved a niche where I see his name in the credits of British shows (anything from drama to documentary) at least once or twice a week.

Even within the sound area, for the TV/Film world it's become pretty specialised...some places do mainly Foley, others make a living doing just ADR. Obviously there are some post houses that pull it all together but there's lots of different ways to get a first job.

 

[Pinky]

... it can be done, just takes effort and sacrifice...

... and luck. If it only took effort and talent everyone would be living their dreams [or at least a much higher percent than are now].

Bobby, the number of schools pumping out 'audio engineers' exceeds the job market's needs. There needs to be a thousand or more independent production companies to scoop up those graduates. The math just doesn't bear this out as a 'smart' career path.

I'm being a realist about this. We can cite exceptions, but that's what makes them exceptions. Giving out advice to someone looking at their professional life ahead requires making this distinction. Arming them with the knowledge that the odds are heavily stacked against them is prudent. Can it be done? Sure. Would I bet (my livelihood) on it? Hell no.

 

[Bobbsy]

Well, I 90% agree, but...

If the US is anything like the UK, there are two or three schools with really good reputations who turn out people who DO tend to get jobs.

For example, in the UK, I've never heard of anyone from Ravensbourne College who didn't get at least an entry level job in TV. Similarly, graduates of the Tonmeister course I mentioned then to get into the music business (studio or live sound). Oh, and Derby University graduates tend to get jobs in theatre and events stuff--lighting, sound, stage management, depending on what they specialised in.

My knowledge of the US is rather less--I know a couple of places what turn our theatre sound people who are in pretty good demand but I'm less sure about the TV/film side the OP is interested in.

So, yeah...I wouldn't recommend just any course but there are a few that ARE worth taking if you can just find out which are the good ones.

 

[Pinky]

We have an abundance of art schools, trade schools, and liberal art colleges with various media industry related career tracts.

Going back, someone posted in this thread about having multiple disciplines in the industry (film editing and theater, for example) which would certainly help separate a candidate from the other job applicants lacking those extra skills/training. However, this creates the same issue we have with more blue collar/menial work that employers are expecting a 4 year degree. Does this necessity translate to effectively needing 2 or more degrees to work in film (or even get your foot in the door)? It's becoming silly what jobs *require* a bachelors now, and frankly many people aren't even employed in their trade/professions right now. [in a way you could call this an education system conspiracy, a sort of feedback system where the value of degrees are inflated] Our economy has never rebounded from 2007/2008. The 'unemployed' numbers are artificially low, both as a combination of those who gave up looking for full time/comparable work, and those who took work well outside of their field at a significant loss in pay, just to make ends meet.

I very much pity college grads right now, if they can get work they're effective treated like slaves. There's many more job seekers than jobs in some industries, especially the arts. Nursing and some tech fields are stable/growing though.

Here's a few random lists (that mostly focus on growth versus actual jobs available, which is a better measure for this discussion since artistic professions have never historically employed a lot of people relative to the total number of workers). Note that none of them mention a single 'arts' profession. This illustrates the 'not growing' or even contracting state of the liberal arts professions:

Fastest Growing Jobs With a Bachelor's Degree

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/explore-careers/careers/hottest-careers-for-college-graduates

Fastest-Growing Occupations - America's Career InfoNet

11 of the Fastest-Growing Jobs in America - Salary.com


An interesting article about this subject I came across:

Forbes Welcome

 

[Chili]

LOL, the OP only posted once, I guess you guys scared him off well enough.

Finish your education and get your crap day gig. Then do audio on the side and maybe you can find some success and switch over. Doubtful, but possible.

As for sound design, I had a neighbor who worked in that field. At first it was a side gig for him while he worked at Roland and it brought in spending money. Later, he was laid off and tried to keep going with the sound design full time. Always hustling to get a contract. He didn't make it. Couldn't find enough work, lost his house, nothing else to fall back on, etc.