Frequencies, overlap, and... well, mixing in general.

[RickyT]

'Elo, all! Well, I'm brand new to the home recording scene so I'm really just getting started up. I recorded some vocal harmonies for a song, but I find that they step on each other's toes, for lack of a better term. There's sort of a breathy-buzz on some of the tenor notes, and sometimes I seem to hit frequencies that just clash and make a muddy mess. Part of the problem might even be how I recorded them, so keep that in mind.

Anyways, I'm not even sure how to mix or master, let alone carve frequencies as I've heard it, so would someone give me some tips on how I can clean these up so that they don't sound so muddy? I use Sonar 8.5 Pro if that matters. Thank you!

And here's what I'm talking about so you can hear it:

http://rapidshare.com/files/315190767/VocalTest.wav.html

Here's another link if that doesn't work:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a1f8c5e/n/VocalTest.wav
(scroll down to the bottom and click "download now with filefactory basic"

 

[alphacrom]

Hey Ricky,

Here ya go... a n00b welcoming a n00b... good to have ya, brother.

To help solve your problem, I'm gonna suggest two things: EQ and panning. I'm not sure your level of knowledge so I'm just going to explain it as though you don't know this already.
Think of your two vocal tracks as people at the subway station. They are the same size, strength, etc. and they get to the same turnstyle at the same time and start trying to push through simultaneously. A lot of pushing and shoving, one might get a little ahead of the other for a moment, but no one's gettin through there. So are your vocals... the same voice recorded with the same mic, at the same settings... there's nothing to distinguish them.
My first suggestion is EQ and to help you there, I HIGHLY suggest you read the following article:
http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/news.php?action=view_story&id=154
It was extremely helpful in my understanding of EQ, so read up and enjoy!

Of course, the simple way to seperate them would be to pan the respective vocals to the left or the right a little bit, but I would suggest learning about the EQ thing first. While it is important, panning is one dial that's pretty easy to figure out. Equalization is an integral part of just about every track you record, and I know it'll help you out... let us know how you're doing.

cr)m

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Part of the problem might even be how I recorded them, so keep that in mind.

Right now I can't seem to download your file, but I would be surprised if the problem wasn't in the recording. "Voice" doesn't naturally clash with "voice", so you shouldn't have to make any fixes while mixing.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Anyways, I'm not even sure how to mix or master, let alone carve frequencies as I've heard it, so would someone give me some tips on how I can clean these up so that they don't sound so muddy?

As a side note: Forget about frequency "carving". If you are carving while you mix, something is wrong with the recording. Also remove any thought about cleaning mud. Mixing is not cleaning mud. If mud is there, something is wrong with the recording.

I think this is the biggest problem beginners face. Beginners start with tracks recorded by beginners performed by beginners. Then they wonder how to turn those tracks into a pro sound. Instincts and advertising campaigns and determination all point to mixing as the answer. Surely, something happens while mixing that transforms the sum of everything into "pro sound". No. It doesn't. And beginners never know that because beginners don't mix tracks recorded by Phil Nicolo performed by Joe Perry.

Pros take tracks that come straight off the microphone sounding like sugar-frosted magic and then bend over backwards to not screw it up while making it loud and generic enough to satisfy the unmusical dumb-dumb paying for the whole thing.

 

[RickyT]

As a side note: Forget about frequency "carving". If you are carving while you mix, something is wrong with the recording. Also remove any thought about cleaning mud. Mixing is not cleaning mud. If mud is there, something is wrong with the recording.

I think this is the biggest problem beginners face. Beginners start with tracks recorded by beginners performed by beginners. Then they wonder how to turn those tracks into a pro sound. Instincts and advertising campaigns and determination all point to mixing as the answer. Surely, something happens while mixing that transforms the sum of everything into "pro sound". No. It doesn't. And beginners never know that because beginners don't mix tracks recorded by Phil Nicolo performed by Joe Perry.

Pros take tracks that come straight off the microphone sounding like sugar-frosted magic and then bend over backwards to not screw it up while making it loud and generic enough to satisfy the unmusical dumb-dumb paying for the whole thing.

Haha, well, fair enough, my friend. I'm currently at work but when I get home I'll fix the link so you can listen - but I'm wondering, if it is the recording, what remedies might there be in that spectrum? Should I re-do my setup to make the acoustics as dead as possible? Also, I believe that because I'm making an ooh-sound with resonate frequencies occurring in my throat/mouth (not unlike tuvan throat singing), that perhaps my voice is clashing. But maybe not. But they sound reasonably clear when played by themselves. I don't know, haha.

But at any rate, thanks for all the input. I'll absorb all the information I can get!

 

[BenignVanilla]

First off, I don't think it sounds so bad. I think a little of panning to give it a spread would help a bit. Some EQ couldn't hurt either, to give some presence.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

when I get home I'll fix the link so you can listen

Dude, that sounds really cool!

The harmonies sound fine to me.

Maybe the bass got off pitch for a fraction of an instant...I might have heard some dissonance down there.

The only change I would really suggest is to re-record the single melody vocal (lead vocal/whatever you call it) while standing back from the mic a bit more. Or maybe sing slightly off-axis. That is where I'm hearing mud, and I'm really not hearing much. Maybe give a tiny eq boost to the high treble on the harmonies...

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Should I re-do my setup to make the acoustics as dead as possible?

Here's the thing: A poorly-treated "dead" room sounds BAD. If you don't know how to deaden a room (And I have no idea how to deaden a room) you will probably only deaden high mid range sounds and then think the whole room is dead...because it will sound pretty dead. But bass and low mids take some real know-how to kill. If you kill everything else and not the low stuff, you get a mud-heavy room.

As for the question of should the room be dead in the first place: That is a "producer" question. How do you want the vocals to sound in the final recording? Do you want them to sound like somebody talking 2 inches from your ear? If yes, then dead room. Do you want vocals that sound like the singer is in a church? Then record in the liveliest room you can find. I do not like to record a dead vocal and then add digital reverb if my final sound is supposed to be lively. Many times I will still have to add some reverb if the room isn't perfect. Chances are us home recordists have a small number of recording rooms available and we have to take what we can get. But I still shoot for something close.

And that is another thing to think about: What can you record with what is available to you? Maybe your artistic vision works best with a bone-dead vocal. Well...most of us can't make a bone-dead vocal. So you might have to re-think your artistic vision and come up with a compromise that works with your limitations. It sounds like taking a lazy way out but it is actually a lot of work. You have to know what you can and can't do and then fit your songs into those constraints without the end listener knowing there ever was a limitation in the first place. If I push hard for something totally dead and mess it up with a bad room the listener will certainly know something is foul. If I change the arrangement of the song to be appropriate to what I can successfully record the end listener is none the wiser, all of the sounds are pleasing, and I sound much more professional.

So, the answer is that if you want the final mixed vocal to sound dead - yes you should record in a dead room. But find somebody who knows how to make a dead room first.

 

[RickyT]

Cool, thank you for all the advice! And if you think it doesn't sound very muddy, I'll take your word. I probably just need to try some different sounds while recording and play around with it. Also, I think a big part might be the poor acoustics where I'm listening to it - I don't mind it when I'm listening using headphones.

Anyways, I'll keep the stuff about deadening rooms in mind when I'm recording. I'm currently just singing in a corner with a big down duvet hung up behind me. I might play some more with that, as well. Thanks for all the help!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I'm currently just singing in a corner with a big down duvet hung up behind me.

Well there you go! A big duvet will definitely deaden any sparkle while leaving all of the low mids and mud.

Try singing it again out in the middle of the room. And take down the duvet. At least just the lead vocal (like I said, the song overall didn't sound that muddy). I'm positive that is where your mud came from. If you like it, try singing the bass part again out in the middle of the room.

 

[RickyT]

Awesome, thanks for all your help! I took your advice and re-recorded the songs, taking advantage of the room's natural sound, and panned and EQ'd a little bit. This is what I came up with. However, something still worries me: when I play this on my crappy laptop speakers, it literally makes my whole laptop vibrate and sounds horrible. Is that just because I layered my voice over itself and it's making weird overtones or something? It sounds great with headphones or nicer speakers though.

Also, one more thing. There's random clipping in the piece, and I'm not sure why. I don't think it's volume (there's even a funny sound right at the very beginning of it). Any idea why this would be happening? Anyways, let me know what you think!

http://www.myspace.com/rickyteel

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I love that sustained (synth?) note.

You are hitting resonant frequencies in your laptop. Without getting into the technicalities of it, it just means that your laptop (and pretty much everything else in the world) "wants" to vibrate at a certain frequency. When you shake it at that frequency, it goes nuts. All things have different resonant frequencies, so this isn't as simple as "cut here and then nothing will shake".


The chord around 0:21 shakes my (crappy) speakers. But just a little. Nothing I would even notice if I were a normal person. Right now I don't have the internet hooked to any of my good speakers...


Anyway, you need to cut some frequencies if some part of the song rattles EVERYBODY's speakers. But if it is limited to problems with laptops I'd let it go.




Vocals sound much better.