floor tom tracking

[Wireneck]

I see tons of threads about best placement for overheads, snare, and kick but i've never really read anything about floor toms. In my experience micing up drums this is the one drum that always gives me the most trouble.
I always seem to get just a low boom and not really the attack that i can get off smaller toms or the snare. I usually have to do alot of eqing to get a sound that is even usable. Also it seems that this is the one drum that alot of drummers have no freakin clue how to tune and are the most inconsistent about hitting consistently.
What mics do you guys like to use for the floor tom (lets say 16" or 18")? I normally use a shure 57 or an AT pro 25, I also have a shure beta 52 but thats normally on the kick and might be a bit of overkill on the f tom.
What types of placement do you find works the best to minimize bleed and yields the most accurate sound? I know this is a DEPENDS question but please share what works for you. Im just looking for some new ideas.

 

[BrettB]

Also it seems that this is the one drum that alot of drummers have no freakin clue how to tune and are the most inconsistent about hitting consistently.

that's the trick in my experience: good tuning. When it is correctely tuned for the type of music you are playing, and the tom sounds great natural, it wil sound good when recorded.

I recorded floor toms with a beta 57, a regular 57 and even with a condensor clipon from sennheiser. Especially the clip on needs some trial and error regarding the placement, but I had good recults with all those mices.

 

[Wireneck]

Thanks

for sharing BrettB. Anyone else?

 

[Sonixx]

Re: Re: floor tom tracking

that's the trick in my experience: good tuning....

absolutely... it's the only way to get a great tom sound on tape... unfortunately, it may cost you money (new heads) and it will definitely cost you time. but it's well worth it. check this out

once you have the tom tuned with your chosen head type, no tape or muffling is required and positioning the mic borders on being a no brainer. The tone comes from the center of the head and gets thinner towards the rim, but finding the sweet spot is quick if it's tuned well. If not, it sux no matter where you put the mic. Even inexpensive shells can sound pretty good if tuned properly.

 

[giles117]

As for me and my floor tom, I use a Beta 98

Gives me plenty of attack and that nice floor tom throaty sound I like.

I have also done the old mic off the side of the rim for more attack pick-up and anothe rmic on the head for more of the tone and blend the 2 as needed and compensating for phase as needed.

Like you said, depends on the sound I am looking for. And Yes the 1st step is IMO Always fresh heads before a session, let the drummer warm up and break em in and let's record.

Bryan Giles

 

[Han]

Any engineer who's recording drums should know or learn how to tune drums. It's not very difficult, but many drummers have no clue how to tune their instrument.

And since you are the one who's 'responsible' for the sound, learn it!

Once a floor tom sound really good, you won't have any problem getting a good recording with any decent mic.

Much attack and low end: MD 421
More low end: MD 441
Even more low end: D12 or 112

 

[TexRoadkill]

In the 80's sometimes they would setup extra room mics that were placed to sound great on a specific tom. Then they would trigger a gate on that mic with the close tom mic. I'd like to try that once I get a few more mics and some gates.

 

[Wireneck]

thanks everyone

i understand what you guys are saying about being able to tune the drums even if the drummer himself can't. I actually own a set of drums and i play pretty often but i would by no means call myself a drummer (primary instrument is guitar). I usually can get my own drums tuned where they sound pretty good if i muck around enough. Im not really proficient enough to sit down and tune someone elses though.
The other problem is convincing a drummer that their drums are tuned like shit. Ive got a friend who is an incredible drummer and has been playing for years. His idea of tuning a snare is tightening both heads as tight as they will go. It is the most lifeless snare sound i have ever heard. Its just weird that so many people who play this instrument don't really know how to make it sound good. I guess for as many bad there have to be good so it evens out somwhere. ]
Tex- that sounds like a good idea. Its sort of like the effects boxes w/ reverse reverb that have a threshold you set to make it fire up?

 

[pratt]

Re: Re: Re: floor tom tracking

...once you have the tom tuned with your chosen head type, no tape or muffling is required and positioning the mic borders on being a no brainer. The tone comes from the center of the head and gets thinner towards the rim, but finding the sweet spot is quick if it's tuned well. If not, it sux no matter where you put the mic. Even inexpensive shells can sound pretty good if tuned properly.

a couple of points...coming from a drummer that also enjoys recording....

a well-tuned kit (or floor tom) isn't necessarilly just ready to record....a well tuned drum is going to resonate very well....which I've found, particlarly with my floor toms, isn't always so good. I have a yamaha beech custom 6 piece with 14" and 16" suspended floor toms. These drums - particularly the 16, sound incredible when tuned right and resonating freely. However, when recording, I always have to detune the bottom head just a bit in order to defeat the resonance at a point. If I don't do this, the resonance tends build up and muddy up the drum mix - especially when I have those drums mic'd.

I've used my beta52 to record these floor toms and it sounds Fat!!

peace

 

[sirpunkly]

I find slapping on some heavy reverb, and then gating it to get rid of the echo gets rid of alot of the boomyness.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I find slapping on some heavy reverb, and then gating it to get rid of the echo gets rid of alot of the boomyness.

That makes absolutely no sense.......... adding heavy reverb will only make an already-booming sound more boomy.

 

[Han]

Here's a simple way to tune drums:

Make sure you have a good head, heads with dents will never have a good sound.

Put a finger in the center of the bottom (resonant) head and stroke gently near the span screws of the batter head. You will hear just overtones.

Make it sound the same tone near each span.

Same with the bottom head (which must be a resonant head, a batter head wont work) and tune it a tad higher or lower than the batter head.

I have found that many drummers can't tune their instruments, some don't have a clue how to do it.

 

[Track Rat]

I have found that many drummers can't tune their instruments, some don't have a clue how to do it.

AMEN to that brother.

 

[sjoko2]

Any engineer who's recording drums should know or learn how to tune drums. It's not very difficult, but many drummers have no clue how to tune their instrument.

I'll take issue with the "its not very difficult" part - if it wasn't difficult, why are people who can do it so hard to find?

The "many drummers have no clue" part has to go down as the biggest understatement sofar this century.

I work with one drummer who will ask "what key is this song in?" as a standard prior to doing anything. That's pretty unique, but he's also pretty uniquely good, which must be why he can charge 1000 per song. But it NEVER seems to amaze me how many "drummers" simply don't know their instruments.
Its like a guitar players who can't tune a guitar........mind you.......

For what its worth, here is my choice of floor tom mics:

1 - Neumann KM 54 This simply is the ultimate for toms, I have never found anything to beat it in 30 + years

2 - Elation KM202 You might not have heard from this one. Its made in Russia, but its of excellent quality. Check out their website http://www.elation-microphones.com. This mic is especially designed for kick drums, but also works extremely well on low toms. If you are interested in buying one, I'd advice you to go for a pair and stuff one in your kick.

3 - For low end with attack, try something different? Like for instance a, Earthworks SRO omni-directional mic on your floor toms.

Whilst choice of mic differs depending on the kind of sound / music I record, this the following is more-or-less my standard set-up:

Kick - Audio Technica AE2500 (2 channel mic) centered inside the drum, A Yamaha SubKick outside the drum.

Snare Top - Earthworks SRO Onmi-directional

Snare bottem - Shure S7

Hat - Earthworks SR77

Toms - Neumann KM54

Overheads - Neumann U87's with Inner Tube modifications

 

[sirpunkly]

That makes absolutely no sense.......... adding heavy reverb will only make an already-booming sound more boomy.

Not if you noise gate it.

 

[sjoko2]

Not if you noise gate it.

Noise gating a reverb? I go with BB, it doesn't make any sense at all.

Unless you didn't explain yourself properly, and you ment putting a gate on the tom signal - to eliminate the tail and keep the attack - and then put a reverb on the gated signal, in which case you will have full control over the sustain of each hit.
If that is what you ment, that is a proven and good method.

However - it is not a solution, as you will eliminate unwanted tom sustain from the channel in question, but you will still have the same sustained signal in your other microphones, in particular your overheads. On top of that, you will have a large chance that part of your reverb tale is out-of-phase with the original sustain, in which case you will have some cancellation.

It all comes back to the basic, and most important, principles of recording. Tune your instuments properly, make it sound right AT THE SOURCE, and you're more than 1/2 way there already.

 

[Han]

I'll take issue with the "its not very difficult" part - if it wasn't difficult, why are people who can do it so hard to find?

Have you ever tuned a grand piano?

Well I do it all the time and you can believe me, tuning drums is very easy compared to the 200+ strings of the grand.

 

[sjoko2]

Have you ever tuned a grand piano?

Well I do it all the time and you can believe me, tuning drums is very easy compared to the 200+ strings of the grand.

Yes I have. Got a full-size concert grand here, and I still do not agree. Once a grand has 'bedded-in' and the action etc has been set up properly (which is an art), maintaining tuning is, to a large extend, a technique, as opposed to tuning drums, which is an art, especially tuning drums to a song.

I would like to add that 99 out of 100 drummers THINK they can tune drums. In my experience 1 out of 100 CAN tune drums.

Of all instruments tuning drums seems to be a completely forgotten art. Well........... to "westerners" at least. If you've worked with African percussionists, you'll find that tuning is almost "bread in", and the key element for them.

 

[Han]

Wow, what a discussion we have here.

Tuning a piano with a tuning device isn't that difficult, but make it sound really good is an art. And tune it so that it will stay in tune during a concert with many forto parts is very difficult.

The grand at the Amsterdam Concert Building gets tuned by only two guys that are found good enough, so I've heard.

Tuning drums of a regular drumkit is more a skill than an art IMHO.

If you wanna do it really good you'll have to find out the tone of the shell first, by removing the rims and heads and compare the tone to the tones of the piano.

A drum like a tom for example, will sound best when the shell resonates at it's own freq.

So there are very few tones where that tom will sound very good, maybe not more than two tones.

A tom tuned in A may sound good, but it may sound bad in B.

So, you'll need many different toms when you want to tune them to the key of the song, or you'll have to compromise.

I agree 100% with you, very few drummers can tune their instrument well. Like very few pianoplayers can tune their instrument very good.

I can write a book about drummers.

 

[starch]

I am probably of the 99% who think they can tune drums and can't. I abandon the 'art' and just go for function.

As for miking. I have had great success using a D112. I set the mic just over the rim and I point the mic about half way between the rim and where the stick attacks the head. I start here and move to taste.