first tune with Sonar (and other new gear)!

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maryslittlesecret

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Howdy, all. It's been a while since I've posted something new, so I hope everybody's still willing to take a listen and provide some feedback. The name of the new tune is "Relativity" -- it's the first tune listed on our mp3.com page http://www.mp3.com/30SoS

As the subject suggests, this is the first tune we've recorded with Sonar (which I'm pretty pleased with for the most part). Using Sonar led to a fair amount of envelope mixing, which is new to me. I also have a new bass, which has a noticeably different tone than my old one. In addition, I'm using the plug-in version of the BBE for mastering (I was using the analog rackmount previously). And maybe the biggest change is the studio's in a new room -- we moved recently so I'm now recording in a small bedroom with hardwood floors, as opposed to the big old concrete basement I was recording in...

I did what I could to keep a consistent sound/mix between this tune and the old ones, so those of you who are familiar with our previous stuff (or are willing to take the time to compare with the other tunes listed), I'd love to get your input on continuity. Otherwise, the floor is open for general comments and questions -- production, mix, performance, song, whatever. Thanks and I look forward to your input.

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS
 
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hey, the first link did not take me there. I had to remove the . as the end of s0s.

I like the power of the guitars, bass and all the instruments in general.

Man, the vocal leaves much to be desired. I needs EQ. It sounds thin, brittle, and far away. This might be the genre, but it does not sound good to my ears.

Good mix, except the vocals.

peace
 
Link works fine now.

Yup, what Cyan sez: The song is good, you have a great raw power sound. The vocals are in tune, which is great, but they need to be fuller, IMHO. Perhaps a bit less treble sound. Otherwise, very cool.
 
Thanks for the honest input, guys. I've never really been happy with my vocal production, so I can hear where you're coming from.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with our other stuff or listened to any other tunes when you were out there today, but I'd like to know if this is a problem unique to the new tune or if you think its something that's an issue with all our tunes -- that way could pinpoint if the new room/gear may be a factor. If you're willing, please take a listen to some of the other tunes on that page and let me know if this is a consistent issue.

Regardless, I'd really appreciate some general advice on EQing the vox, as well as specific thoughts on which frequencies I should look at cutting (always cut, not boost, right?) and any other input or suggestions. I'm an EQ novice, so feel free to share any thoughts and tips. Thanks and keep the input coming.

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS
 
Kick ass tune... loved it! ;)

The rest of the guys were right about the thin vocals, but I'm not sure if just eq would help.
What mic did you use for vocals?
If you guys used a tube mic, like the RODE NTK, and a decent tube preamp... you vocals would sound phenomenal.

You could use a tad more thump on the kick drum.

I'd also eliminate that stuttering-edit @ the 3:05 mark... I'd rather hear the full SCREEEEEEAAAAAMMMMMM!!!!!

Great song, though.

If I had a label, I'd sign you guys in a heartbeat! :)

Buck
 
Wow! That rocked!...I read the comments about the thinness of the vocal track and kinda hear what the others are talking about but I thought it helped the vocal stand out in the mix. Good stuff!

I also thought that the "stutter edit" was interesting and different....a "screeeeeaaaammm!!!" would have been expected and "standard stuff" for the genre.

I listened to a couple of your other tunes on the page and thought the "sound" of the band was still VERY much intact.

I'd be interested if you could explain what "envelope mixing" is. The effects in "Relativity" were seemless (with the exception of a couple of glitches that I believe were either bad encoding or interruptions in streaming the tune...)

Really enjoyed the tune!
 
Thanks for the positive comments on the tune, guys. I'm glad you dig it. I listened to Relativity and the other songs last night and the vocal production seems pretty similar on all of them, but I would like to get them a little warmer and thicker across the board...

Where I think part of the problem lies is that I'm pretty dynamic when I track vocals (not dynamic as in good, but as in varying between loud and soft) ;-)> My vox get compressed pretty heavily as they go in just to keep the loud stuff from overloading and the normal stuff from sounding to weak. Any tips on tracking vox to combat this? Compressor settings, mic techniques, any input is welcome...

Buck62, thanks for the input. You didn't happen to be one of the big Powerball winners, did you? I was hoping that was the case so you could start that record label... ;-)> In terms of gear, I'm using an AKG c3000 mic and a dbx 286A mic processor. The tube preamps or mics I've found seem kind of pricey for my modest budget -- can they really make that big of a difference (I'm still kind of a rookie with performing/recording vocals)? And if so, any suggestions at a mid-level price range?

And MAC2, thanks as well. You're on the money with the stuttuer effect -- we just wanted to try something a little less predictable (though Buck also has a point about a full on scream...). In terms of envelope mixing, it's something that's new to me as well -- I got into it due to poor design on Sonar's console view. Anyway, it's kind of hard to explain but its basically like drawing your mix -- you create start and end points on your wave for and the line in-between determines your parameters (ie: if you create a diagonal line between start and end, its a fade). You can also drag the line up or down to create a sudden jump or drop in volume. It's essentially a more graphical way to automate your mix through Sonar. If anyone else can help me explain this, please jump in... Anyway, if you have any other questions, drop me an email and I can send you a screen shot from sonar that may help...

So the consensus seems to be the vocals need more depth and less high-end. Any suggestions on how to track or mix dynamic, high-volume vocals?

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS
 
Nice.

Well done! I second a lot of other comments about the vocals... somehow, they don't seem to "fit", and definitely stray towards the high frequencies.

As for the "stutter", I think it worked well on the instrumental, but may have been a bit much on the vocal... the scream by itself might have been a little more "conventional", or "expected", but also more powerful. Keeping the flow is important, and that particular bit seemed to break it, at least to me.

Now, suggestions... take them for what you will, and keep in mind I am just getting into recording, myself. On the vocals, definitely up the bass, and "couch" it into the mix a little bit more. Don't bury/dull them, just build up the presence (chorus, EQ?), possibly regress them a bit, and they should (hopefully) click into the mix.

On the quiet sections ("You think that you know me..."), you may want to up the general volume a bit... you can get that solid "punch" without having to drop or raise volume... let the music do the talking.

All that said, an excellent job. Good sound, and a well-balanced mix. Keep up the good work. :)
 
HomeRec said:
As for the "stutter", I think it worked well on the instrumental, but may have been a bit much on the vocal...
Click to expand...

On second thought/listen, the "stutter" does work, but would probably be helped by having it drop out on 16ths. In other words, if the stutter was synced up rhythmically with the song. Just a thought.
 
When I listened to the tune the stutter edit sounded in time rhythmically....but now I wonder if the band would be able to pull that off in "live" performance (?)
 
Great stuff again, man. I guess I was hoping for more variation from your next song - its sounding almost too similar to your other songs, especially with the main guitar sound. You say you're trying for a consistent sound, and well you're doing a damn good job but I think you can back off a bit on that. Hopefully having the same people involved and the same general process will do all the work of maintaining consistency. In order to make this stand out, I would tweak the guitars a bit, maybe blend in a mic'ed amp with the pod stuff and don't be afraid of the mids.

Also, it seems like there's not much of a unifying lyric or chorus I guess, whatever you want to call it, but after listening to this song nothing really sticks in my head. I would simplify the chorus and maybe trying singing it in a more sustained style. On the "quiet" parts (especially at 1:50-2:07 and 2:45-3:01, BTW that synth there is pure sweetness, very nice!), I would let your vocals breathe a little bit and back off on the compression.

I can definitely hear the BBE this time, and IMHO when you can really hear an "enhancement" effect like this then you're using too much. What stands out to me is the harsh/crispy highs from the cymbals and a little on the guitars. I would play with the plugin a bit and see if you can fix it there, and don't rule out using the outboard box if it just plain sounds better, even with the extra A/D -> D/A. Also, there are some other enhancement plugins out there and I'm not sure which is best but it can't hurt to try something else. I'd look into Hyperprism and maybe some of the Waves stuff.

On that stutter effect at 3:02, I would just stutter the vocal track and keep like a synth pad or something in the background.

Overall, this still rocks. Maybe I'm trying harder to find things as I get more jealous! ;) BTW, have you thought at all about coming up with another song or two and then really getting this stuff down live? I don't know what the music scene is like in CR, but I'm sure you could open for somebody here in Iowa City at Gabe's or some of the other bars. Something to thing about anyway....
 
Wow, I don't log in for a day and my thread explodes! :eek: Thanks for all the comments, everyone. Let me take a minute to address you all individually...

Cyan -- I used to record with a 58 (back in my analog days) and switched to a higher dollar mic to try and get a better sound. However, I'll probably give the ol' standby a spin for the next tune. I don't know much about mics (among other things) -- is there a reason that may work better for us?

HomeRec -- I'm glad to see the stutter is a point of conversation -- that means it's at least grabbing some attention (which is half the battle). We listened to it a few times and felt like it was pretty close to on time with the rest of the song -- I'll have to take a listen again... Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "couch" the vocals. Could you explain? And in terms of the down section, we may have gone a little overboard but we were working for a huge dynamic drop there...

c7sus -- Thanks for the comments. We're especially glad to know it's not too far out to possibly appeal to fans of other genres.

Mac2 -- I felt the stutter was pretty close to on time as well, but I'm going to take a nother listen before I say for sure. And in terms of pulling it off live, I guess our sound guy would have to have a pretty quick mute switch on the mains ;) Also, I'll see if I can get some more info on Sonar for you...

And Dole -- Good to hear from you again. As usual, you seem to have given this tune a fair amount of attention -- thanks, we really appreciate your input! In terms of variation, I'll be the first to admit we don't stray much from our style. We have a couple tunes that are a little more diverse, but I probably won't be posting any big surprises anytime soon. However, there are a couple things I want to try with the guitar for the next tune so we'll see -- regardless, I hope you'll still give us a listen. ;) In terms of the chorus, you're pretty much on the money -- the rhythm of the verse are about as close to a 'hook' as you'd find. This was more of a songwriting experiment to bring a 'chorus' down in volume -- kind of an 'anti-power ballad' :D And, yes the BBE plug in is more noticable than the rackmount so far -- I plan to tweak it a little more and hopefully fix that. With the stutter, we originally tried doing just the voice -- it sounded good but thought this would have a bigger impact. And lastly, we'd love to (and are currently working to get to where we can) play these out. Right now, we're looking for someone who could do keys/sequencer/etc. to manage all the loops and electronics live. If you know of anyone who'd be interested down in IC (or anywhere else for that matter), PLEASE give them our web address (http://www.30SoS.com) and have them get a hold of us. That would be awesome!

Thanks again, everyone for the comments. I'm planning on making some changes with the next tune so hopefully, we can all hear an improvement (and if I get the chance, I make go back and try to make some change with this one...)! Any other input or advice is more than welcome -- keep it coming!

J
http://www.30SoS.com
 
maryslittlesecret said:
HomeRec -- I'm glad to see the stutter is a point of conversation -- that means it's at least grabbing some attention (which is half the battle). We listened to it a few times and felt like it was pretty close to on time with the rest of the song -- I'll have to take a listen again... Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "couch" the vocals. Could you explain? And in terms of the down section, we may have gone a little overboard but we were working for a huge dynamic drop there...
Click to expand...

When I said "couch" the vocals, it was a general comment. The vocal track seemed to "stand out" from the rest of the parts, possibly due to the high treble content of the vocals (as mentioned). It's entirely possible that, once you've come up with the proper tweak for vocal production, that will do the trick.

Since listening to your song, I have heard a similar "drop" technique used in several other songs... yours is a bit drastic, but if it's what you were looking for, then definitely stick with it. As for the stutter, it seems off to me, but not by much. Once again, if you're happy with the result, stick with it.

Keep in mind, I am probably one of the least qualified to give you advice, as I am just setting up a recording solution myself. Also, keep in mind that, overall, this is a very well-done song. Any changes to the mix would be minor tweaks.

Keep up the good work! :)
 
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Nice Work Guys,

Greetings,

A bit diff then my style, but definately well done.

I actually like the vocals "bare". Its adds to the aggression of the song. Love the thick guitar tone, and the harmonics are a nice addition. The solo was much better then a typical blazing run of notes (that is all too common).

SirRiff
 
One of the reasons that you don't have enough meat and potatoes in your vocals is due to the fact that you are using an AKG C3000.
I also own the same mic and have used it often, but unfortunately, it's a bit harsh in the upper-mids and highs.
After I got a decent preamp (MindPrint Envoice), it improved the vocals immensely.
Here's a recording that I did several months ago, in which I mic'd the singer with the C3000 and ran it through the Envoice.
I think you'll notice the improvement in not only the lower end, but the overall sound that a real "quality" tube preamp gives you.
I also used the C3000 on the harmonica track, too.

http://sectionz.net/m04010101.asp?mp3ID=538

In a day or so, I'll post a song in which I mic'd the singer with a RODE NTK and ran it through the MindPrint.

The difference is astounding!

Using a tube mic through a tube preamp gives you that elusive "pro caliber" vocal sound that everyone strives for.

Buck
 
All right, I think with the general consensus on the vocals, you have me sold on looking into upgrading my vocal gear...

This is probably a post for a different thread, but any suggestions on a nice warm mic preamp that won't bleed my bank account dry? Or should I replace my mic (and keep the same preamp -- dbx 286A). I've heard many good things about the Rode NTK... The floor is open for suggestions on mic vs. preamp (and brands and models for each). Let's hear you...

J
http://www.30SoS.com
 
Great song as usual. Nothing to add that hasn't already been said.

Just wondering. Do ya listen to Megadeth? I hear some Dave in your voice, and a lil in the guitar.
 
4 songs, 4 consistent "hits." Still impressed by that. "Envelope editing"... that's the way we've been "mixing" in Pro Tools since it all started, way back when. Cool to see other programs getting hip to it.

As far as consistency, yeah, it sounds like your other songs, but it's catchy, it's tight, it's thick, and the riffs kick ass. The thing about this one I like is that you really let out some nice screams at the end, you're showing off your vocal ability quite a bit more. I think the "thinness" of your voice fits these mixes IMHO. In the type of music I do, the vocal tone is always a lot thicker, but my music is 180 degrees different from yours. You need to fit that thick guitar and the vocals into a very small range of frequencies, so an overly thick vocal sound would have us all complaining of muddy, hard-to-comprehend lyrics.

If you really want to thicken them up a little, get closer to the mic, and if you're still not happy, experiment with different mics. I like my Rode NTK a lot, it's not only thick, but warm and saturated sounding, with really clean high end. But I hated it with the few tube preamps I used, and ended up going back to solid state, where it really shines. Neve, SSL, etc. do fine in solid state, esp. with tube mics. In that genre, I know Trent Reznor often tracks vocals with an SM58, and it still sounds right for the song, so don't stress about getting a "thick mic".

The stutter: I've heard it before, but I like it better than a straight-up scream. Also, there's a nice volume swell on it; it makes it really explode.

Your stuff rocks as always. It makes me itch to get my hands on your trax and remix, remix, remix in Pro Tools... mostly cuz I still want to hear different drums on them!
 
Hey, Charger. Thanks for the dissenting opinion. I tend to agree with the majority that the vocals could be warmed up a bit, but I may hold out on new gear for another tune and just try resetting my 286 to try and get a warmer sound. Plus, I may bust out the 58 to see how that flies... However, I've looked at the the Rode NT1 and am surprised how inexpensive that is -- do you know anything about that one? Seems like a helluva deal if it's half as good as what I hear about their other mics...

And yes, I am getting a little more comfortable with my role as singer and trying to see how much I can get away with vocally -- thanks for noticing. In terms of getting ahold of our trax, are you talking like a techno remix? If so, we may be game for that. A friend of ours from Chicago is going to do one of our songs -- maybe you'd want to do a different one? I don't remember if that's your style, but let me know if you're interested...

And brokenwindow, I used to be a pretty big Megadeth fan as a kid, so there's possibly some subconscious influence there. Though I think they're I fine band, any similarities are unintentional -- especially with my voice. I'm hoping to sound more like Maynard from Tool or Brandon from Incubus, but I'm stuck being Dave from Megadeth... :(

Thanks for the comments. Any other thoughts on the vocals, mix, tune, or my Dave Mustaine impersonation...? :p

J
http://www.30SoS.com
 
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