T
tom18222
yes
nice, man. what holds it up? haha
V
valem
New member
Keep the pics coming.
How long do you think it's going to take until completion?
How long do you think it's going to take until completion?
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hello studiogenocide. Congrats on getting the building envelope up. Just a question or two. Does the surrounding environment require extensive "soundproofing" of the envelope? If so I have quite a few suggestions for you prior to drywalling, but would need more info. Let me know. Also, what are you planning on for HVAC?
fitZ
fitZ
studiogenocide
New member
Thanks Rick, I appreciate your insight on this, as I am truly a rookie when it comes to construction. You know, I have found that I am learning so many lessons late in life...
Unfortunately, the building is close to a main road where you can hear the traffic, so yes, isolation is a must. Also, the occasional dog barks. I cannot afford to auralex my walls, so I have been studying several different insulation techniques like foamboard, mineral wool, etc. I cannot find any affordable mineral wool I can afford at this time, it would cost me a small fortune to do just one room.
The building is a metal building with 2 x 4 studs 24 inches appart on the frame. We are doing 2 x 4 on 16 centers for the interior walls, and we have all the wiring up with the exception of the musical cables because we do not know what we want to do yet. We are going to go ahead and insulate the PC/network workroom and start on the mixing/media room next. More than likely, we will be working on these audio booths for a few months due to the added expense that I was not counting on. Any advice you have is welcome and appreciated.
Unfortunately, the building is close to a main road where you can hear the traffic, so yes, isolation is a must. Also, the occasional dog barks. I cannot afford to auralex my walls, so I have been studying several different insulation techniques like foamboard, mineral wool, etc. I cannot find any affordable mineral wool I can afford at this time, it would cost me a small fortune to do just one room.
The building is a metal building with 2 x 4 studs 24 inches appart on the frame. We are doing 2 x 4 on 16 centers for the interior walls, and we have all the wiring up with the exception of the musical cables because we do not know what we want to do yet. We are going to go ahead and insulate the PC/network workroom and start on the mixing/media room next. More than likely, we will be working on these audio booths for a few months due to the added expense that I was not counting on. Any advice you have is welcome and appreciated.
studiogenocide
New member
Oh, and Tom, ha ha, very funny. You know, I did everything in my power to have them build this thing on a concrete slab, and they stated they absolutely could not do it- so that is kinda a sore subject for me. For those who do not know, the building is a 16' x 28'. Here are some more pics. I plan on completing most of it within the month of Feb. I will probably be working on the audio booths until I am dead.
Attachments
V
valem
New member
I'm curious to know why they couldn't put it on a concrete slab. As long as you can get the permits to build it you should not have had any problems.
Are the builders of the structure the ones who said they couldn't?
studiogenocide
New member
At first they told me they could. Then when it got down to it, they forwarded me to the general forman who told me they absolutely could not build it on a slab. I had planned to have a slab from the beginning, so I was really upset- naturally. They explained that they had to build it on runners, and the way the 2 x 6 floor joist were, it was just impossible. I needed this building, and I needed it NOW for my other business (PC & Networks), so I really did not have time to screw around looking for another option. Baby on the way, wife is ready for me to get out of the spare bedroom to fix crap, and dadblamit- I am ready to record something!
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Me too. Unless there were local code restraints, the foreman was full of shit. And it really is too bad that you didn't get what you wanted. The reason is LOW FREQUENCY TRANSMISSION. Now, you have TWO problems. Serious problems. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you might as well know the truth from the outset. Your building is a worst case scenario. Sheet metal buildings are difficult at best to improve Transmission Loss, impossible under budgetary restraints. Let me explain.
First problem. A wood framed floor is simply a membrane, and as such will structurally transmit low frequency sound like a drum head. From inside/out and vice versa. The ONLY solution is to add mass over the subfloor and depending on how loud the environmental noise is AT YOUR BUILDING SITE, you may even have to add layer of decoupling pad to the subfloor mass, and then add another 1/2" subfloor over that, then finish floor.
You can add mass by laying one or more layers of 5/8" drywall over the subfloor, staggering/caulking the joints and using GREEN GLUE to make the layers act as one. This is important, although expensive. The whole thing will probably be a real pain in the ass, and more expensive than a slab. However, if you REALLY need isolation, other than raising the building and pouring a slab under it, which is REALLY a pain in the ass, I see no alternative. MASS is the ONLY solution.
Second Problem. You must understand the principle of a TWO LEAF SYSTEM whereby EACH LEAF is comprised of MASS. Thin sheet metal envelopes have NO MASS. Roof AND walls.
Here again, adding MASS is your only alternative. Not only that but it must be SEALED, which sheet metal buildings are impossible to seal. That leaves only one way. Walls:
Your best bet is to dampen the sheet metal at EVERY STUD CAVITY. There are products for this but I won't go there now. AND, they ain't cheap. Next, add two layers of 5/8" drywall BETWEEN the studs, within the stud cavity, right up to the sheetmetal. I see they didn't even put a visqueen layer(Tyvex) on the building, before attaching the sheet metal. Too Bad.
Again, all joints must be caulked, and the second layer SHOULD be glued to the first, and then caulked CLEATED to the studs to hold in place. Add a layer of insulation, and then two layers of 5/8" drywall on the interior. Again, staggered joints,
This all assumes that you are planning on supporting CEILING JOISTS on the stud wall assemblys. Since the roof is also made of thin sheet metal supported by small profile structural members, it will NOT SUPPORT additional weight, especially the MINIMUM mass that is required for a TWO LEAF SYSTEM. You can't even count the sheetmetal roof as one leaf. Therfore, you must create a Two Leaf system within the confines of the joists. Not easy, nor cheap. In reality, the ceiling system would have to be built similar to the walls. In all probability, depending on the spans involved, 2x8 joists would be the joist nominal dimension of choice, considering FOUR layers of drywall would be supported by these. 2 layers in the attic leaf, and 2 layers on the interior leaf.
And then you have doors/jambs/thresholds/HVAC-ventilation and THEN, the acoustical end of things. All in all, to isolate this building, your looking at a ton of difficult, expensive, and time consumeing details that MUST be done in order to succeed. Again, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you won't be the first owner of a sheet metal building that has come here and faced the truth.
Should you decide to tackle this as I've suggested, by all means keep us up to date and don't hesitate to ask questions BEFORE proceeding. And btw, I'm certainly no expert, but there are a few members here that ARE. You can depend on their expertise for conclusive advice.
Sorry bro.
fitZ
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
PS. Just looked at the pics again and noticed there are some kind of joists already, and what appears to be a sheet metal cieling on top of the joists. This may or may not be a problem. Just depends on the final choice of MASS for the ceiling assembly. Remember, a two leaf system is the BEST assembly for isolation, with each leaf being a layer of MASS.
You could also consider DECOUPLING the interior layer via Resiliant Channel, but its one more difficult detail to succeed.
You could also consider DECOUPLING the interior layer via Resiliant Channel, but its one more difficult detail to succeed.
studiogenocide
New member
I think I can do some of what you stated Rick, it will just take some time. I am going to limit the extras, however, to the recording booths, and just leave them unfinished for however long we need to. I like the idea of adding mass by using drywall- again, never thought of that. Drywall is do-able. Some of the other stuff is not. Maybe you could give me some pointers on how to add mass to the floor by using the drywall? This will certainly be interesting- but I am willing to do it- even if it means I cannot record for a few more months.
studiogenocide
New member
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Howdy studiogenocide. Say, down the road apiece, you might save up for some of this stuff for a drum booth. Impact noise transmission can be reduced significantly. For a small space it wouldn't be too expensive. It's a ROLL OUT product made of rigid fiberglass with Sylomer pucks embedded in the pad.
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/rim/concrete.aspx
There are other manufacturers that use tiles made the same way.
http://www.soundaway.com/Floating_Floor_s/106.htm
fitZ
ps...use this stuff OVER a layer or two of drywall on the floor...but you might consult with the building inspection department before adding the drywall. You might even consider a layer or two of Hardibacker. Its a concrete board product. Kinda expensive though.
studiogenocide
New member
One of the problems with the recording booths is the celings are about 6 foot at the lowest peak, 7 foot at the highest. Anything I add to the floor (obviously) is going to get me closer to the ceiling. With that said- in the meantime for one of my booths, do you think I should add a layer of drywall to the floor and place another sheet of plywood over it and finish in with carpet? I have decided to pack the studs with drywall and insulation and put two layers on the walls inside and out. Let me know- we are getting ready to purchased rywall next week! Thanks!
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
SIX FEET??? I don't think adding stuff to the floor is the problem.Hello studiogenocide, hmmmm, this is not good. What are the other dimensions of this booth and what are you recording in this booth? This is why I ask.
Very small spaces, especially booths are prone to severe COMB FILTERING. If you don't know what this is, I have a test for you to illustrate.
Hook up a mic to a system that you can plug a set of headphones into. Stand in the middle of a room with mic in hand and start either singing or speaking. As your doing this, walk straight towards a wall. As you approach the wall, listen to what happens. This should illustrate what I'm talking about.
The problem is this. As the mic pics up the direct sound, the sound also travels to a boundary and reflects back to the mic. The difference in TIME, no matter how short, causes some frequencies to be CANCELLED and some to be ADDED. When viewed in a scope, the sine wave looks exactly like a COMB. Thats why they call it COMB FILTERING. When recording in large rooms, the distance to boudarys allows sound to decrease in level according to how far it travels. Sound decays 6db for every doubling of distance. In a booth with a cieling at 6 feet means a mic will be approximately the same distance from your mouth as it is to the ceiling(if standing). However, the sound will have to travel TWICE the distance to the ceiling and back to the mic. The time may not make much of a difference, but the mic diaphram responds to the DIFFERENCE which means those wavelengths and their harmonics that match this distance will be either cancelled or added. These wavelengths are in the speaking range when close to a boundary. Hence the change in sonic character. BTW, I'm no acoustics expert and some may disagree with my interpretation of Comb filtering science. But it should be close enough to illustrate my point.
Now, the ONLY way to eliminate this effect in a small booth is to add thick absorption. There is NO acoustical ambience that can be gained in a booth. Therefore the only thing one can do is make it totally dead. This requires at least 2"(i4" would be better)of acoustical foam or rigid fiberglass such as Owens Corning 703 with fabric over it. Now, if you add 4" of absorbtion to your booth cieling, at 6'....well, I'm sure you get my drift.
However, IF the 6' dimension is three feet from the center of the booth, then the 7' dimension will also be three feet to the center. That means the height at the center of the booth will be 6'6". Adding drywall AND absorption will bring that point down to about 6'. But now it has absorption. VIOLA! A usable booth. This absorption should also be on the walls, although, depending on the booths width and depth, you could probably get away with 2".
As to adding drywall to the floor, it all depends on how bad you want total isolation. Like I said, LOW FREQUENCY transmission is your enemy. The floor is a membrane and will easily transmit low frequecies such as road rumble and traffic noises. Make your own decision by LISTENING in the booth. However, there may still be a problem, simply because the floor membrane is integral to the whole building, and is structurally connected regardless of walls. Hence my suggestion of using a DECOUPLED floor pad such as I showed you. The drywall should help dampen this area, but still not be enough to eliminate low frequencies from entering the booth. Like I said, ts very difficult to SOUNDPROOF an envelope such as you have. Especially AFTER the building has been built. There were some steps you could have taken prior to building the floor framing and sheithing it. However, hindsight is 20/20.
fitZ
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Holly shit. Is that picture above the BOOTH??? It looks like about 3' in width. Good luck. Absorption is your only answer. LOTS of it.
Good luck. Absorption is your only answer. LOTS of it.
Supercreep
Lizard People
I'd build a small remote building on a slab near to the metal structure just for drums. Run a snake into the main building.
studiogenocide
New member
studiogenocide
New member
didgijimmy
vexed
idk if this is encouragement...
but i really like following threads like this--- after reading them I can kid myself about getting motivated to do something like this. If you don't continue posting then good luck with it
james
but i really like following threads like this--- after reading them I can kid myself about getting motivated to do something like this. If you don't continue posting then good luck with it
james