First mp3 needs bashing!

[jdhar]

Hey everyone,

This is my first post, so go easy on me (but not my mix!). My band has decided to do our own mixing for this first album. The goal is to have basically demo-quality material to start gigging and gain interest.. not shooting for pro-quality, but just has to be respectable.

Anyway, I'll be doing the majority of the mixing, and this is the first full project I've done, so I could sure use some critiquing on this mix. I have been doing a ton of reading on this forum, and in general, and I think I am trying to adopt as much of a minimalist approach where possible... I don't like tinkering unless I can identify what's wrong clearly.

This song is an instrumental, so don't need to worry about vox for now.. and no mastering, so volume may be a little low.

Here is what I did with this mix (in addition to coarse settings and basic stuff), and what I think needs work. These are active measures I took to correct shortcomings, so please comment if you think something I did is not the right thing to achieve the desired result, or if I didn't achieve the result period:

- @0:10, moved the guitar chords to the back using very light reverb in order to let the solo stand out
- @1:10: Guitars panned hard left and right, but at 1:18, I move the same guitars more to the left and bring in the new guitar harmony to the right. These aren't panned hard anymore in order to bring up presence.
- @2:11: Chords using light reverb again
- @3:14: Bass is muddy in this section, but I think this is because of what the bass line is. It's too low and not recorded well enough IMO... may have to retrack this one.
- @3:54: Back down the rythm guitar part to make room for the solo

Whaddya think? Any of that make sense or am I just doing stuff randomly ?

... so my questions are basically (in order of importance to me):

1. Critique on the general mix: any muddy spots, overall instrument balance etc..
2. Can you tell by listening to the mix which instrument I play? I really want to avoid having a bias while doing this...
3. Any spots that you think could really benefit from effects or more EQ?
4. The song - how is it in general?

 

[dodgeaspen]

It sucks! You suck! The singer sucks! OK enough bashing!!! I like the song in general. I love the separation going on with the guitars, that's fantastic. Just wondering if the drums are real. They seem to have a very good separation to the toms that's why I asked. I think you are off to a good start. Hopefully some more seasoned guys will chime in to give you some real advice. Like I said, very nice job so far.

 

[Kingofpain678]

First off, I really don't think that I qualify as a critic and I'm sure many others would agree, but I've noticed that a lot of your song has guitar solos. My question to you is, where are the vocals supposed to go? And I REALLY dug 2:36 through the rest of the song especially the solo at 3:55, I was really feelin' it.

All in all it was really good, but if it were me I would tone it down on the solos.

 

[shortedaman]

the bass has a lot of mids. its not balanced with the guitar sound very well. IMO. if i were to guess id say you play bass. id say re track the bass and mess with the sound of the bass. also, how did you record the bass? direct, mic'd, etc? drop some highs and a little mids boost the lows a tad and you should be on your way.

 

[Greg_L]

This sounds like a headphone mix. I'm gonna guess you play bass, and by the way, it sounds pretty terrible. It's all midrange and no thump. The arrangement is somewhat interesting. Not my style. The distorted guitars that come in and out are a little harsh. The wah solo is pretty good, but too roomy. How are yall gonna play this live with programmed drums?

 

[jdhar]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies.. good stuff so far. My responses:

First off, I really don't think that I qualify as a critic and I'm sure many others would agree, but I've noticed that a lot of your song has guitar solos. My question to you is, where are the vocals supposed to go?

It's an instrumental Sorry, I know it probably got lost in my long setup post... otherwise, I would totally agree with you that there were too many solos.

the bass has a lot of mids. its not balanced with the guitar sound very well. IMO. if i were to guess id say you play bass. id say re track the bass and mess with the sound of the bass. also, how did you record the bass? direct, mic'd, etc? drop some highs and a little mids boost the lows a tad and you should be on your way.

Agree with re-tracking, but that may just fix some of the mud.. we may unfortunately be stuck with the tone you hear and I'll have to work with it. I will try out your EQ suggestions to see if they help.

This sounds like a headphone mix. I'm gonna guess you play bass, and by the way, it sounds pretty terrible. It's all midrange and no thump. The arrangement is somewhat interesting. Not my style. The distorted guitars that come in and out are a little harsh. The wah solo is pretty good, but too roomy. How are yall gonna play this live with programmed drums?

Did you think it's a headphone mix because the bass is too up front? On my monitors (rokt v5, but no sub), they didn't sound up front at all, but when I listened using my headphones (Beyerdynamic DTs) and also my reasonable computer speakers (w/ sub), bass was too loud. If not, why did you think it was a headphone mix?

Since both of you said it... no, I don't play bass But again, curious to know why if not for the reason I already said. Agreed that bass needs work. And it was recorded direct (using a processor I think??).

Good tips on the guitars, I will try playing around with those. I admittedly am a bit lost on mucking with guitars, which is why I left them along as much as possible.

Also, since two people said it, I'm surprised you guys think drums are pre-programmed... I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or not, haha (I'm the drummer). Definitely not programmed, and there are enough mis-hits to show. What made you think they were pre-progged?

 

[Greg_L]

Did you think it's a headphone mix because the bass is too up front? On my monitors (rokt v5, but no sub), they didn't sound up front at all, but when I listened using my headphones (Beyerdynamic DTs) and also my reasonable computer speakers (w/ sub), bass was too loud. If not, why did you think it was a headphone mix?

Since both of you said it... no, I don't play bass But again, curious to know why if not for the reason I already said. Agreed that bass needs work. And it was recorded direct (using a processor I think??).

Good tips on the guitars, I will try playing around with those. I admittedly am a bit lost on mucking with guitars, which is why I left them along as much as possible.

Also, since two people said it, I'm surprised you guys think drums are pre-programmed... I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or not, haha (I'm the drummer). Definitely not programmed, and there are enough mis-hits to show. What made you think they were pre-progged?

Because, to me, they sound kind of silly with sizzly cymbals and toms jumping out from all directions. I find it hard to believe that it's a real acoustic kit. I'm thinking an E-kit or maybe triggered samples. Which is totally fine, by the way, I'm just saying. It doesn't really sound like real drums. Sounds like samples.

Ahh direct bass. That explains it. Try to find some kind of free bass cab simulator plug-in or something. Or hell, steal something from a torrent site. I don't care. It's really lacking that real bass presence.

It sounds like a headphone mix to me because everything seems exaggerated in it's space. With headphones, most people seem to have a hard time judging reverbs and panning. It usually results in things being too roomy, too dry, too panned, too loud, too quiet, or all of the above - which is kind of whats happening here.

 

[jdhar]

Because, to me, they sound kind of silly with sizzly cymbals and toms jumping out from all directions. I find it hard to believe that it's a real acoustic kit. I'm thinking an E-kit or maybe triggered samples. Which is totally fine, by the way, I'm just saying. It doesn't really sound like real drums. Sounds like samples.

Roland TD-20. Would pushing back toms more and panning them less help with this? I tried muting the cymbals as much as possible too since they are the weak point IMO, but any other tips here are appreciated....

It sounds like a headphone mix to me because everything seems exaggerated in it's space. With headphones, most people seem to have a hard time judging reverbs and panning. It usually results in things being too roomy, too dry, too panned, too loud, too quiet, or all of the above - which is kind of whats happening here.

In addition to above and the room wah-solo, any possible remedies? I can see the too panned or too roomy quality, but is it too loud/quiet also? If so, can you point out an example so I can try to see it. I'm going to head back into mixing in a few hours, and am going to try all these things out.

Thx.

 

[kcearl]

this is a good free bass amp/cab simulator http://www.acmebargig.com/big/

 

[Greg_L]

Roland TD-20. Would pushing back toms more and panning them less help with this? I tried muting the cymbals as much as possible too since they are the weak point IMO, but any other tips here are appreciated....

I don't really know what to tell you. This is why I don't like E-kits or whatever. You have no room mics or overheads to glue the drums together. Everything sounds overly isolated because it is. With real drums you have bleed and room influence on top of the close mics. These are the things that make drums sound like drums. Just keep trying to make the drums sound authentic. Maybe reel in the toms and cymbals a little and treat the whole mess to one reverb like the drums are in one space.

In addition to above and the room wah-solo, any possible remedies? I can see the too panned or too roomy quality, but is it too loud/quiet also? If so, can you point out an example so I can try to see it. I'm going to head back into mixing in a few hours, and am going to try all these things out.

Thx.

The main thing that sticks out to me are the distorted guitars. They lack balls. They're too scratchy/thin. They're also too loud in relation too everything else. When they come in, it's like, whoa! The guitars are here! Maybe that's what you want, and that's fine if you do, but try to get the tone sounding better.

 

[kcearl]

forgot to add... some really nice guitar work in there...but the bass is the weakest link and Gregs right about the drums..when it comes to drums he generally is

 

[chrisharris]

Hi.

The mix sounds pretty hot in the upper mids...I think it's a combination of harshness in the guitars and too much brassy sound on the kit.

The biggest problem for me is with the clean guitar lead lines...I don't know if you're running a chorus on those or what, but whatever it is, they sound out of tune to me throughout the song....and the first time that they're used, I think there are some timing issues between the clean guitar lines and the drums...

I think the musical piece itself is really interesting and entertaining. Some of the sounds are just cheap. The drums sound fake, because they are. I know you played them, and good job on that. My drummer used to play with that kit live, and it was fantastic through a PA, but they always sound fake when recorded. Not sure what you can do about that other than get better samples maybe?

It's a really ambitious first effort, and I want you to know that it is approximately 2,000 times better than the first thing I recorded. I just think by changing some of the sounds, it can improve a ton without having to necessarily re-record everything. If the guitars were done with a plugin, keep working on them...a little less fuzz and a tamer top end on them will go a long ways towards warming the mix up a bit.

 

[jdhar]

The main thing that sticks out to me are the distorted guitars. They lack balls. They're too scratchy/thin. They're also too loud in relation too everything else. When they come in, it's like, whoa! The guitars are here! Maybe that's what you want, and that's fine if you do, but try to get the tone sounding better.

Got it; this seems to jive with chris' comment below as well

forgot to add... some really nice guitar work in there...but the bass is the weakest link and Gregs right about the drums..when it comes to drums he generally is

Ya, I've read a whole lot of Gregs earlier posts throughout the forum... not going to argue

The biggest problem for me is with the clean guitar lead lines...I don't know if you're running a chorus on those or what, but whatever it is, they sound out of tune to me throughout the song....and the first time that they're used, I think there are some timing issues between the clean guitar lines and the drums...

No chorus on the guitars, but he likes doing the multiple track panned L/R metal thing. Guitarist basically gave me High Left, High right, Mid Left, Mid Right, Low Left Low Right, where the Highs/Mids/Lefts are each a different take on the same piece. The slight variation in playing gives it the chorus feel. I ended up taking out most of the lows on the guitars, and just left Highs/Mids, but maybe this is why it's too hot on the high end? No plugin on the guitar as well, this was recorded through this effects board, so all the guitar effects are done there.

Could you also call out the specific timesig you see a timing issue at the beginning? The fill @0:59 is the only thing I recognize as being off-time in that first section.

In general, I am in total agreement that drums are not real sounding. The thing is I have been playing for quite a while, and my personal feel is to take that fake sound vs. a crappy recording job of a real kit. I don't have the expertise or gear to record my acoustic kit (which is rather large) and make it sound anywhere close to what I have now, being fake as it is. I dunno, matter of preference I guess... I just need to figure out how to make them sit without being too obvious. Honestly, you guys are the first to pick out that it wasn't a real kit... we've been to 2 different local mixing studios and they didn't know. Mind you, their mixes sucked as well

 

[kcearl]

I think the thing with drums is they should sound obviously fake or as real as possible..not that Im any expert..but that tends to work..somewhere in between is where people like Greg and Chris can spot it and it detracts from your composition

Great place for criticism and learning here

 

[chrisharris]

The slight variation in playing gives it the chorus feel. Could you also call out the specific timesig you see a timing issue at the beginning? The fill @0:59 is the only thing I recognize as being off-time in that first section.

I actually can't, but the whole section from :23 seconds up to the 1 minute mark is just really pitchy and weird to me...I mean, listen to the guitars starting at :23 seconds and tell me they're in tune??? As far as the timing goes, the reason I can't be more specific is that maybe it's not a timing issue as much as a feel issue...that whole section just feels jerky...almost like drums were done after the guitars...in addition to being out of tune, there's just a real disjointed feeling I get through that section. Sorry i can't be more specific.

In general, I am in total agreement that drums are not real sounding. The thing is I have been playing for quite a while, and my personal feel is to take that fake sound vs. a crappy recording job of a real kit.

Have you ever considered drum replacement software like Drumagog? If not, you really should. I'm not sure if it would work with a V-Kit or not, especially if your kit only sends out 2 lines...like a stereo left/right. But if you have the ability to record the kick on one track, the hat on another, the snare on another, etc...then drumagog or something like it can help you immensely. You'd get to keep the feel of playing your kit, but you'd also get the great sounds of an acoustic kit.

 

[jdhar]

Have you ever considered drum replacement software like Drumagog? If not, you really should. I'm not sure if it would work with a V-Kit or not, especially if your kit only sends out 2 lines...like a stereo left/right. But if you have the ability to record the kick on one track, the hat on another, the snare on another, etc...then drumagog or something like it can help you immensely. You'd get to keep the feel of playing your kit, but you'd also get the great sounds of an acoustic kit.

Not really, and I admit I would be hesitant in doing so not having tried it before... do you have any example tracks of what that would sound like in a real mix? I have 10 direct outputs from my module, so I have pretty good separation of the major parts. Would be pretty amazing if it could sound better..

btw, I have seen a few threads asking for bass line contributions... may as well add another one Our bass lines need work (evident) and we don't have a stable contributor anyway. Anyone who thinks it's worth giving a shot, PM me.

 

[nzausrec]

It made my nose bleed.

 

[jdhar]

Alright, so I have taken peoples feedback and put another mix together:

- I tried to give the distorted guitars more warmth and less on the high end
- Backed off distorted guitars volume
- Tried to deepen sound of bass to fill up low end
- Minor level adjustments for dynamics all over

The original is still located here if anyone wants to compare:

Did I move in the right direction? Also, we plan on sending our mixed songs out for mastering... how are the overall levels for this? Anything I need to watch out for before sending it out?

 

[mattdee1]

This piece definitely has its moments. Some really good playing in here. The moments where it's not so good are mostly mix-related, I think. Like I believe somebody already mentioned, when that "clean" guitar lead comes in, it's way too hot. And I'm not really sold on the chorusy sound of it.

That bass leaves a lot to be desired. The first thing I thought of was "that playing style sounds like a guitar player picking up a bass for the first time this year, because there's nobody else around to play it". I can recognize this "syndrome" because I suffer from it myself (although I'm really trying to work on that). It's not that it was sloppy, just the tone was mid-rangey and dull, and the style was kind of stiff.