Finished another remix -- anything very noticeably off?

[Nola]

Hey guys, I posted this in December and have spent a few minutes per day tinkering with it since then and finally have it finished (I think).
https://soundcloud.com/suicidevan/you-know-the-way


I'm not looking for nitpick type things at this stage that will send me back to the drawing board, b/c honestly I am tired of mixing it (and I'm sure some of you who know it are tired of hearing it!), but just if anything major is wrong with the mix in terms of main things like volume, balance, etc.

Thanks!

 

[ido1957]

Vocals are pitchy and you tend to slide up to notes rather than hit them right away.
The lead guitars are either out of tune or you need to learn to bend them more accurately.
The lead guitars are harsh and too loud, try a different pedal/patch or amp setting and smooth them out.
Drums could come up.
I recommend you go back to the drawing board on a performance level as mixing is not going to fix most of these issues.

 

[Snowman999]

As far as the mix goes it's fine. Very good song.

Since this is the kind of the song that I listen to, I'm going to give my opinion on two things that make this song go from excellent and multiple listens to a very good song that I wouldn't turn off if I heard it. Which is still pretty good.

This is just my opinion: The melody doesn't sound fleshed out enough. It almost feels as if (even though you're not) landing on the same note each time you end a line. Way Way Stay. Things Bring Strings Stay. A more fleshed out melody would make this song a thousand times stronger.

This is really only my opinion: There are many songs where guitar solos are just there. This is especially true starting in the 90s. Musically this is excellent till the trading guitar parts at the end. FOR ME (and why the hell should you care about one person... You shouldn't) it was just there. No riff to hold on and remember. The best solos are truly memorable. Or at the absolute least a nice riff you can hum for a second and forget. Listen to how the riffs/music grows in the beginning. The riff between the verses is great. The guitars come in at the end STRONG and beautiful, but lead nowhere.

Very good song. Best of luck with it. Is this going on a film soundtrack?

 

[Nola]

The lead guitars are harsh and too loud, try a different pedal/patch or amp setting and smooth them out.

Thanks yeah I agree with that, I will turn them down and EQ some brights out now.

As far as the mix goes it's fine. Very good song.

Since this is the kind of the song that I listen to, I'm going to give my opinion on two things that make this song go from excellent and multiple listens to a very good song that I wouldn't turn off if I heard it. Which is still pretty good.

This is just my opinion: The melody doesn't sound fleshed out enough. It almost feels as if (even though you're not) landing on the same note each time you end a line. Way Way Stay. Things Bring Strings Stay. A more fleshed out melody would make this song a thousand times stronger.

This is really only my opinion: There are many songs where guitar solos are just there. This is especially true starting in the 90s. Musically this is excellent till the trading guitar parts at the end. FOR ME (and why the hell should you care about one person... You shouldn't) it was just there. No riff to hold on and remember. The best solos are truly memorable. Or at the absolute least a nice riff you can hum for a second and forget. Listen to how the riffs/music grows in the beginning. The riff between the verses is great. The guitars come in at the end STRONG and beautiful, but lead nowhere.

Very good song. Best of luck with it. Is this going on a film soundtrack?

Hey thanks for the detailed feedback, Snowman. What do you listen to?
In my mind this was a Velvet Underground meats Dinosaur Jr with a few jazz chords thrown in, which pretty much covers all my favorite influences. I'm not sure how it comes across.

The guitar leads were both 1 take improvs on the spot, so there was no writing just playing and whatever came out came out. The idea was more a wall of sound than fleshed out guitar solos. I wasn't thinking about solos that went in any particular direction; just leads that would wash out the ending in a wall of noise with lines you can pick out if you listen. E.g. The ending of Dinosaur Jrs "They always Come", which I think is one of the most beautiful pieces of guitar music ever created -- many layered melodies washing into a wall of sound. Since I'm just a lowly home recorder I couldn't match that, but that was the idea.

Oh, and about the vocal melody...that's just how I hear it, and I'm not sure where it would go otherwise. Feel free to cover it and do a vocal you hear! I'd love to hear ideas. I think it's actually pentatonic, which seemed weird for a vocal, but that's just how it developed.

 

[Snowman999]

You're welcome.

It's funny the difference between the first responder and my post. If it weren't for the things I mentioned this song would be on my playlist. It's posts like ours that just goes to show how subjective music is.

Where he might be more "on" in his opinion (it doesn't mean he's correct in your decisions), I don't know when something is pitchy or off-key. If I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't.

A good Example: Once I was driving to the studio with a real singer, who was going to do BG vocals. She wanted to know what feeling/flavor I wanted. I played The Clash's "The Prisoner" which I LOVE. After hearing it she said "You want it flat and off-key?" I had no idea. I still don't care, I LOVE that song.

If you like something, you like it. If you don't, it's hard to change a person's mind.

I love the Velvet Underground, and I'm now going to have to check out Dinosaur Jr. But, this song reminds me of Cowboy Junkies, The Sundays... It has what I like to call a romantic vibe. While they have nothing in common instrumentally Blondie's "Shayla" and Zeppelin's "Ten Years Gone" have that vibe. Newer Lucinda Williams songs have it. It's like angels could break out any second.

I can't sing, everything I do is fixed in melodyne. EVERY NOTE. I'm usually flat. But, what are the chords under the vocals. It might take a very long time, but I'd try to show you what I mean.

Listen to this song. It's the real singer from my Clash story doing the vocals. She is a singer. Like it or hate it, she can sing. My vocals would be close to what you did here. Her vocals are what happens when you think like a vocalist. It's this particular song that clearly showed me the difference between singing and SINGING.

BTW: The master was destroyed years ago. So, that strangeness in the beginning is because this MP3 comes from a cassette. It sounds a little warped (IMO) because I only have the one copy left.



The guitar parts: I don't know your equipment, or if you go into the studio and pay hourly. When I went to the studio, I was the worst musician there. But, I tried to always go in prepared. I was paying. If you do this at home, you have no time constraints. Repeat till it's perfect in your mind. That song Relax I posted, might sound really simple (and it is) the 2 different guitar parts during the solo took hours of playing. I never punch in, and I kept playing till I thought I couldn't go any further.Then my friends killed my dream by pointing out that at the end there's a few bad notes.

The studio I used to record at had a sign "Art can not be rushed"

 

[ido1957]

It's funny the difference between the first responder and my post. If it weren't for the things I mentioned this song would be on my playlist. It's posts like ours that just goes to show how subjective music is.

Where he might be more "on" in his opinion (it doesn't mean he's correct in your decisions), I don't know when something is pitchy or off-key. If I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't.

If you don't know when something is pitchy or off key, that's a problem. Music may be subjective, but off key vocals are not (or instruments for that matter). It's easy for the average listener to pick up on that shortcoming. They will either... turn it off right away, or think it's a joke but invariably will not miss it. Remember all the bad singers on American Idol? They showed their clips as comic relief, not because they were creative or interesting.

If you want to be a respected musician or singer, you have to work at your craft and strive for a level beyond "ok". If you're not willing to put in the effort, you will be subjected to comments pointing out your flaws, whether you like them or not. And you will usually cringe yourself when you listen back to the track and wish it was better.

These types of issues don't enhance the song (or the mix). You can call it my opinion or say music is subjective if you want to hide behind the problem. My advice is put in the time to get it right at the source because no pre-amps, plugins, or mixing tricks will make the song worth listening to if it sounds like ****.

 

[Nola]

If you don't know when something is pitchy or off key, that's a problem. Music may be subjective, but off key vocals are not (or instruments for that matter). It's easy for the average listener to pick up on that shortcoming. They will either... turn it off right away, or think it's a joke but invariably will not miss it. Remember all the bad singers on American Idol? They showed their clips as comic relief, not because they were creative or interesting.

If you want to be a respected musician or singer, you have to work at your craft and strive for a level beyond "ok". If you're not willing to put in the effort, you will be subjected to comments pointing out your flaws, whether you like them or not. And you will usually cringe yourself when you listen back to the track and wish it was better.

Ido, there are literally hundreds of successful bands that would be laughed off American Idol. That should be nobody's benchmark for good music or good singing. Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, and Lou Reed would have been laughed off American Idol because they're all off key and have odd timbre. Those are three of the most influential musicians ever...and almost all critics and musicians view their vocals as just "okay enough" to get across the song.

What is interesting is that the brain will fill in problem notes, to a degree. I read a book about this called "Your brain on music", which is great and highly recommended. We actually will fill in the pitch the singer meant to sing (thus, why most listeners do not notice flat pitch unless it's more than a half-step flat). The most extreme example of this that I ever came across is a song called "People" by the Silver Jews. I don't think the singer hits one correct note the entire song, yet it's on a critically acclaimed 5-star album that had huge underground success.

I'm not trying to justify flat pitch, but you are taking a "GregL stance" where things have to be to your black and white vision of greatness, and the fact is that's not what people care about, within reason of course. BTW, I never asked for feedback on pitch and quite the opposite: "I'm not looking for nitpick type things at this stage that will send me back to the drawing board, but just if anything major is wrong with the mix in terms of main things like volume, balance, etc."

You provided help with the comment on the outro guitars being too loud, so thanks for that, but this pitch stuff is no help at all because I like the vocal as-is, and I'm confident in it. You don't like it, and I'm fine with that. I understand your stance and noted it so let's end it here at civil discussion and not argue.

 

[ido1957]

Ido, there are literally hundreds of successful bands that would be laughed off American Idol. That should be nobody's benchmark for good music or good singing. Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, and Lou Reed would have been laughed off American Idol because they're all off key and have odd timbre. Those are three of the most influential musicians ever...and almost all critics and musicians view their vocals as just "okay enough" to get across the song.

What is interesting is that the brain will fill in problem notes, to a degree. I read a book about this called "Your brain on music", which is great and highly recommended. We actually will fill in the pitch the singer meant to sing (thus, why most listeners do not notice flat pitch unless it's more than a half-step flat). The most extreme example of this that I ever came across is a song called "People" by the Silver Jews. I don't think the singer hits one correct note the entire song, yet it's on a critically acclaimed 5-star album that had huge underground success.

I'm not trying to justify flat pitch, but you are taking a "GregL stance" where things have to be to your black and white vision of greatness, and the fact is that's not what people care about, within reason of course. BTW, I never asked for feedback on pitch and quite the opposite: "I'm not looking for nitpick type things at this stage that will send me back to the drawing board, but just if anything major is wrong with the mix in terms of main things like volume, balance, etc."

You provided help with the comment on the outro guitars being too loud, so thanks for that, but this pitch stuff is no help at all because I like the vocal as-is, and I'm confident in it. You don't like it, and I'm fine with that. I understand your stance and noted it so let's end it here at civil discussion and not argue.

I guess we agree to disagree. Personally, I don't enjoy listening to off key music or vocals. Your reference to Greg_L makes me chuckle.

 

[TripleM]

I always like your songs. Just a style thing that I like.

The guitars sound OK, but just OK. The acoustic guitar is a little boxy. And the crunch guitars are a little grainy.

Vocals are a little pitchy. And a little boxy. Nice clarity in the upper midrange.

Bass level is a little inconsistent. I think there might be some low end frequencies that need to be notched out. Like somewhere in the 120hz area.

edit - there are a couple of small timing mistakes in spots.

 

[Nola]

Hey thanks, 3M. Appreciate it. Which timing mistakes did you hear?

I agree and heard that in the bass, yet I notched out -9db where I was hearing it...yet I still hear it. I also compressed it more aggressively than usual with -7db gain reduction thinking it might have been caused by a note hit harder, yet I still heard it. So I'm not sure what to do.

 

[JohnnyAmato]

Hey Nola, nice song. Nice wide mix.

I noticed the few pitchy vocals mentioned, but they're not bad and actually fit the song, I wouldn't stress it.

Acoustic sounds nice to me, the left rhythm guitar sounds a tad warbly, could be Soundcloud doing that though.

I have no problems with the drums. Ride sounds good.

The lead guitars are a little grainy, but again not too bad, sounds like a quick check with a bell EQ from 2-4k might be worth looking at. The few bends at the very end come out a little flat, but they also sort of fit the song. I'm just really picky with my solos, I'll re-take a hundred times if I have to. I'll often not even keep a great solo because of one little audible pick scrape, too strong of a pluck noise on one note, or one bend that might have been a tad pitchy. I've learned to try to not care as much, but I'm still picky. Friends, bandmates, and the wife always think I'm nuts for re-doing solos they thought were absolutely fine. Funny too, because nowadays there are so many videos on YouTube with isolated guitar parts from classic albums. Listening to them, it simply blew my mind at how much crap is buried in there; scrapes, other string noise, crackle, etc. And these are classic solos I grew up listening to, and never heard any of the extra noise. And I'm talking stuff like Iron Maiden, Ozzy, Van Halen, Zeppelin, classic songs. It was kind of an eye-opener.

 

[Nola]

Thanks for the elaborate feedback, Johnny. You're a good guy and seem opened minded, which is great.
I love dissonance so I bent until I heard some I liked/expressed how I felt. Wasn't thinking at all about pitch.

I will check that graininess, though. They're more shrill to my ear. Is that the same as grainy? I notched out some 2-4k already, but maybe I can get more aggressive.

PS. Maybe don't be so hard on yourself with your takes -- it's the scars that make us human!

 

[Snowman999]

"If you don't know when something is pitchy or off key, that's a problem."

Only in my own music. I am the exception to the rule. Most anyone with my ear and awful voice wouldn't even consider music as a hobby. But, I'd say go to the song I posted and listen. Then explain how it's all nonsense. That the one tone deaf person that wrote/played/mixed the entire song has no idea what he's doing because he lacks the knowledge to do these things properly.

'Music may be subjective, but off key vocals are not "

There's just way too many instances where you're literally wrong on this. I believe Nola pointed out a few. You can hate Bob Dylan, he makes my wife cringe, I love him. A musician I know pointed out a Beatles hit that was ruined for him, because there's a horn or woodwind that's playing off-key. Yet it was kept in a Beatles hit.

"If you want to be a respected musician or singer, you have to work at your craft and strive for a level beyond "ok"

Do you like punk rock? How about country musicians? Hank Williams Sr? Johnny Cash? Seriously, what's Williams or Cash's range?

What I think you're trying to say is, you have to do your best. Which I completely agree with. It's the reason I always hated Nirvana. Cobain COULD sing on key and chose not to. It was written, he'd suck on purpose and refuse to rerecord it. Punk musicians might not sing on key, not because they didn't want to. But, because they just couldn't. What they lacked in talent, they made up for in heart and soul.

The most telling part of your post is "American Idol?" There's your problem. We're not on the same wavelenght musically. There isn't a musician I know that would ever watch a second of that show. It doesn't make your opinion on music wrong or terrible (though American Idol?) it just means we probably won't like the same songs.

From your post (and I could be wrong), I'd wager you probably think Whitney Houston's version of I Will Always Love You is much better than Dolly Parton's original. I think the exact opposite. LOVE Dolly, HATE Whitney. She was truly the most soulless soul singer I ever heard. GREAT MAGNIFICENT PITCH, no heart.

There is no right or wrong in music. It's only right or wrong depending on what you're trying to achieve. When I hear someone's music, I believe they're putting forth the song they want to put forth. If someone specifially asks "Am I pitchy?" I won't say a word, because I can't answer with any type of authority. In the case of this forum area it's the MIX phase. Chances are good if something is pitchy and you've gotten feedback before, you already know.

"They showed their clips as comic relief, not because they were creative or interesting."

Of course, some people just suck. Some go to try out to make a spectacle of themselves. Others just truly don't know they can't sing. There's a huge difference between being off-key like Sonic Youth and having no talent at all. Though I do hate Sonic Youth.

We can agree to disagree. But, as in my original post if it weren't for the problems I heard, this song would be on my playlist. It has nothing to do with pitchinesss. That's what makes music subjective. You can't tell me NOT to like this song. I can't tell you To like this song.

No one is right or wrong. Music as with all art is up to the audience member.

I'll leave you with this: When the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame opened they dedicated a pillar to post the rejection notices U2 received when they were label hunting. I'd bet ALL those A&R executives who signed those letters are no longer working for their respective labels. Yes, it applies to this discussion. Because it's all subjective.

 

[Robus]

The mix sounds pretty good to me. Levels are fine. I do get ido1957's point about pitch issues on the vocals, flat bends on the guitar and whatnot. But there is an audience for the kind of quirky stuff you do. Plenty of examples come to mind. The imperfections are part of the sound. I doubt your audience will be put off by those things. I tend to be hyper-sensitive to timing issues because I've struggled with them myself. I'm not hearing anything distracting on that score.

 

[Nola]

Hey guys, I EQ'd the solos at the end so they aren't so harsh/grainy. Can you let me know if the outro is less harsh/grainy now? I also pitch corrected one vocal note, and very very minor EQ on the acoustic.

Ps. Just for experimentation, I pitch-corrected the bends, and they sounded bad at "proper" pitch. Way too bright and happy for the mood/chaos there; they changed the entire mood once at pitch, so I reverted them.

https://soundcloud.com/suicidevan/soundtrack-song

 

[TripleM]

Hey thanks, 3M. Appreciate it. Which timing mistakes did you hear?

I'm at work now and can't get to SC. So I can't put time markers on them. I seem to recall there were two. Very small though. I seem to remember the gutiars and bass jumped a beat too quickly in a couple of spots. Probably not worth doing anything about unless you're handy with that type of editing.

 

[andrushkiwt]

The acoustic guitar is a little boxy. Vocals are a little pitchy. And a little boxy.

That's basically what I'm hearing too. Kind of a muffled/boxy sound to lots of things. Not much clarity, for me. Almost like most instruments were mixed in solo rather than within the mix, since there seems to be a lot of tones in the low-mid/mid going on. I can't really pick out an instrument that sits on the top end of the spectrum nicely without seeming on the dark side of the freq spectrum. If you're going to make the guitars all dark, then I'd consider making the snare a little brighter, for example. I'd also think about removing some low mids from the bass if the vocal is going to be heavier in the 300-500 range. I'm basically imagining an exaggerated upside down smiley face for the mix, with the peak around 1k.

As far as the guitar solo, I agree it wasn't very memorable, and for a very long solo, I think it should be thought out a little more. Vocal melody was alright, it's just that tone of the vocal and lack of clarity or top end to it. For an occasional effect, I'd like it more. Maybe it's that mic. Not sure.

 

[Nola]

Thanks, Andru. What I am trying to figure out is if there's an actual problem where I need to re-track, or this is just a preference thing. Like I like warm/darker sounds and retro sounds -- that mic is a 1949 harmonica mic. So, I love that sound because I just like old sounds and use it for effect at times when it sounds better than a modern mic. I did try a modern mic on this song and didn't like the vibe. Do you dislike old sounds from that era and find them all boxy or plain bad sounding, or this specific to my mic and mix? Just trying to figure this out.

Also, I HP filtered the acoustic at 420hz, super aggressive, b/c when it had any lower response it was booming up the low end incredibly. It had to go that high. So are you and 3M hearing a "thin guitar" (b/c that is true, and I hear that) or a "boxy" guitar (which I think of congested sounding, in which case I wouldn't understand the comment b/c it is HP'd above the "boxy frequency range" of 350-450 and I just hear thin not claustrophobic).

If you guys could clarify that it would help me refine any possible adjustments.

Thanks, guys.

 

[JohnnyAmato]

Guitar solo at the end definitely sounds better to me. Smoother, and seems to fit better in the mix and not stand out as slightly harsh. I'm not sure which vocal you pitch-corrected, but it must've worked since I heard no issues.

Acoustic sounds fine to me. No two recordings ever have the same acoustic sound, so unless something is blatantly wrong (volume, EQ) it's hard for me to say anything bad about it, when to me it sounds fine. Be careful not to over-EQ it, it sounds good to me. I would suggest experimenting for fun and maybe doubling and hard panning it with a soft stereo chorus, or tracking it a second time and hard panning each, but because of the other rhythm guitar tracks you already have going on, this might not work.

I don't have any problems with the vocal mic, but I'm not the most schooled guy on mics and how particular ones sound. Nothing stood out to me as bad or boxy, the sounds all seem to fit this particular piece.

 

[andrushkiwt]

It's mostly the vocal. The acoustics sound ok, but I agree with John that they always sound different. Brut has a nice acoustic sound going in the clinic right now too, and yours is good but different. Listening again, I think the vocal has more of an effect on the overall tone of the song for me since it sounds much better at 1:20 when the vocal stops, another guitar comes in, and there's a nice top end cymbal splash that fills it out pretty well... so, i think it's just that vocal that is sitting in the range of the other guitars and upping the boxiness of the track during those sections.