Find the Cost of Freedom

mark skinner

Active member
Great song to cover. I haven't heard it in a Long time. Thanks for taking me back. I once played in an acoustic trio , we did all the harmony band stuff and always ended our last set with this song. Really Enjoyed it .. mark
 
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dachay2tnr

One Hit Wonder
I listened on an iPad, so can’t give it a fair evaluation, but the acoustic sounded great. Nice job. I’ll check it out again next time I’m in my studio and can listen more critically.
 

frank1985

Member
Really nice harmonisation on the vocals...dunno if it's just my headphones colourising things a bit, but i'd maybe add a 'smidgen' more bass to the acoustic? Very much a nit pick though. This got me me to seek out some CS&N stuff on youtube.
 

TalismanRich

Well-known member
Thanks guys. Appreciate the feedback.

Mark Skinner: I really want to try doing the Daylight Again/Find the Cost of Freedom version that CSN did on one of their live DVDs. I just haven't worked out the vocals for the Daylight Again portion, and I wonder if I can still hit the higher notes that I did 8 or 10 years ago! I guess the only way to find out is to fire up the mics and give it a go. Need to work out the parts first.

Beaky" Doing a cappella harmony with a DAW is tough because you don't have the visual clues to hit those initial notes that you would normally have if you actually have multiple singers.
 

mark skinner

Active member
Yeah , We went from 4 & 20/ Daylight again /Find the cost of freedom , with no stops in between songs. I'm finding I have to tune down a half step now on just about everything and some songs even further. Sure would be nice to have the same vocal range I had in earlier years. Thanks for reminding me of Daylight Again. I've been trying to think of it for days.. mark
 

TalismanRich

Well-known member
Funny that you mention 4 and 20, that was one of the first songs that I did when I got my AW16G. That was about 2004 and I used my old Yamaha FG-160 that I've had since the early 70s. I had also gotten my first "studio mics", the Studio Projects B3s. I found the mix when I was dubbing down all the files on the AW last fall. No harmony on that one of course, just the weird Stephen Stills tuning.

View attachment 4 and 20 AW16g Final .mp3
 

dachay2tnr

One Hit Wonder
OK, listened on headphones in my studio. First blush is the acoustics didn't sound as good as they did on my iPad - maybe a tad too bassy. But the vocals otoh sounded much better.

FWIW, I would pan the acoustics much wider. It'll open up a pocket for the vocals in the middle. I often go full left with one and full right with another. Also try and eq them to rid some of the bass and bring out the sweet highs. I'm guessing they sounded better on the iPad since the iPad essentially has no bass.

The vocals sound pretty good, but there are a couple of timing issues. Most people probably wouldn't care, but I'm a stickler for stuff like that. And in a DAW they're pretty easy to fix. Either move them to line up with the other vocals, or if that doesn't work, clip the beginning of the track(s) that starts early. By itself it'll sound weird, since the starting consenent will be missing. But in the mix you really won't notice it at all.

Good job though. CSN&Y are pretty tough to cover.

BTW, also listened to 4 and 20 and find the same issue with the acoustic. Too bassy. It's either the guitar itself, or the way you're recording it. Too much boomy low end imho.
 

TalismanRich

Well-known member
dachay2tnr

The 4 and 20 track was done 18 years ago. It was mixed on the Vandersteen stereo speakers in my bedroom, which are really pretty good speakers. I had no monitors at the time. When I played it, things pretty much sounded as I remembered, although my hearing isn't anywhere close to what it was then. It is what it is.

I'm a bit confused about panning the acoustics wider. There is only one acoustic during the vocal part, so panning hard to side won't create any pocket. Maybe the reverb is making it feel like multiple guitars. The vocals have no EQ on them, just a routing to the reverb which is a Bricasti M7 vocal booth IR set to M/S.

I know there was one particular spot where a voice came in early (on the word buried). I did a bit of cut and paste to move it as much as I could without making it obvious. I also did a dip on the guitars at 200Hz of about 2 dB. They already had a high pass at 85, so I know it's not the very low part. It's a Taylor dreadnought, so it will have some bottom bloom. The original mix had a bigger cut in the bottom and really sounded anemic. That's one reason I started over.

Let me know if this sounds better:



View attachment Find The Cost Of Freedom Mix B.mp3
 

Slouching Raymond

Active member
Gave it a listen on headphones.
I don't know the song at all.
The guitars are very impressive, and the vocals too.
Reminds me of 'Songs from the wood - Jethro Tull'
Is perhaps one of the vocals not completely in tune here and there. I'm no expert here, but you probably want honest impressions.
Wish my songs came out as well as that.
 

stratmonkee

Active member
Fantastic guitar on these, listening on headphones, very nice 4 & 20 , I'm also going to have to listen to some CS&N today ,they are a band I'm not to familiar with except for the FM radio hits I grew up with. I do have Stephan Stills album of a band he was in called Manassas that has some killer guitar work.
Very nice listen, thanks for sharing
 

mark skinner

Active member
Thanks for posting 4 & 20. Good job on it. I've also got an aw16g that I still use on occasion. Would be nice to set it up as a controller , but can't figure it out. 2nd version of Find the cost .. was a Lot nicer. "buried" was better , maybe a little fade in on one of the voices would clean it up more. On the First verse there's an out of sync spot that would be easy to fix. On the "Find the cost" , let the main vocal do "the cost" by itself. Or you could zooom in and manually cut it up the harmony part and sync it. Anyway I Really enjoyed both songs .. mark
 

Slouching Raymond

Active member
Thanks for posting 4 & 20. Good job on it. I've also got an aw16g that I still use on occasion. Would be nice to set it up as a controller , but can't figure it out. 2nd version of Find the cost .. was a Lot nicer. "buried" was better , maybe a little fade in on one of the voices would clean it up more. On the First verse there's an out of sync spot that would be easy to fix. On the "Find the cost" , let the main vocal do "the cost" by itself. Or you could zooom in and manually cut it up the harmony part and sync it. Anyway I Really enjoyed both songs .. mark
I used my AW16G as a controller to a remote Korg D16XD. The manual tells you how, and you have to edit the midi sequences that get transmitted, to match those required by the destination.
 

dachay2tnr

One Hit Wonder
Let me know if this sounds better:



View attachment 115035
Guitars sound significantly better to my ears. :thumbs up: You managed to get rid of the boominess/bassyness I was hearing. Btw, I also play a Taylor dreadnaught (310 CE from the early 2000s).

Personally I still would pan the guitars in the beginning further apart to create a wider soundscape. And sorry about the comment about creating a pocket for the vocals - my bad. I was talking about that approach in general, and not really realizing you went with a single guitar later. It's a nit though, as the guitars sound quite good now. However, another suggestion might be to duplicate the guitar part you're playing during the vocals and pan one of them left and one right. I don't mean to simply copy and paste, I mean to actually play the same part and record it a second time. I think it could really add to this.

Also I heard more timing issues than just buried. For example, "the cost" when the vocals first come in. As already noted, this is a personal peeve. Some people feel that it's more realistic that way. The Band is a good example of imperfect vocal timing that works. So take it for what it's worth.

All in all, this is quite good though. Nice job.
 
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