Final mixdown questions

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WarmJetGuitar

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We're working on our second album and this time we're keeping the recording process completely analog. Five or six-piece band recording basic tracks on a Fostex 8-track, mixing down to another Fostex 8-track, adding vocals and other stuff on the remaing six tracks = finished song. The sound is usually great and the amount of hiss just acceptable, even without the dolby C.

When we have finished and mixed the overdubs we need to mix down to something. For the premixes we done so far we've been mixing down to a computer using a cheap ass Behringer soundcard. The high end gets too harsh, the bass not boomy enough, too 90's sounding and less "psysical" despite we're mixing down at 96000 khz and 32 bit. When monitoring directly from tape it sounds just great, even on a cheap 80's Philips all-in-one stereo.

My the dilemma is:

1. Should we buy a nice 2-track running at 15 or even 30 ips. for the final mixdowns? Or will a third generation of quarter inch copying kill too many frequencies and add too much hiss? Which affordable machine would be best for this purpose? A Revox running at 15. ips? It's fine if the mixdown tape recorder adds its own flavour to the sound but it should be very noise free, otherwise we'd have to cut too much high frequencies. How would a Teac or Tascam serve as a mastering machine? We can hardly afford a Studer or Otari for the next year or so.

2. Should we just buy a better soundcard? It won't add any noise but I suppose we're at risk of killing some of the analog warmth of the sound by doing so and the AD/DA conversion also gives some loss of quality.
 
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Found a Revox G36 running 15 ips really cheap. How noisy is these things? Tubes sounds very appealing to me.
 
What recorders are you using? Fostex R8s? I assume you're going to want your recordings on a digital format in order to distribute them in which case at some point you'll have to mix/ transfer to a digital recorder. If you get a 1/4" deck to mix to, will you then transfer that to the computer via the behringer interface? If you do that, you'll almost definitely get the same sound that you're unhappy with. Since it sounds good coming straight off the tape, it's seems like the interface is doing something nasty to the sound and not that it's lacking some 1/4" mixdown 'flavour'. It would probably be a good idea just to get a good digital mixdown deck. I mix to a Sony RCD-w100. It's not the best of decks but I'm happy with the sound and it doesn't seem to destroy the recording (I record using a tascam MS16).
 
A G36 would be fun, but I can imagine it needing a fair bit of love. In particular, it's probably going to need recapping, and with capacitors rated for 300V or whatever it uses internally.

Incidentally, this might be of interest:
Overhauling a Revox G36

IIRC there is a way to fit A77/B77 heads to the G36, but I couldn't tell you for sure.
 
We're using a Fostex R8 and a Fostex Model 80. I prefer the M80 over the R8 but both sounds pretty good.
Is the Sony you mention a sound card or a harddisc recorder?

Well, we release our album on vinyl, on Bandcamp and maybe cassette. Would be nice to work completely analog for the vinyl release if it don't cost a fortune or will be noisy. But yeah, we sure need to do digital mastering regardless as it would be stupid to exclude people who's too broke or deaf to have a record player.
 
Oh, hi JP. Apperantly we were writing at the same time. Nice article, thanks :-)

Is recapping a tough one to fix myself?

Maybe a A77, B77 or PR99 would be a safer bet. Is it hard to make a standard Revox run at 15 ips.? Because 15 ips. Revox isn't that common and thats what we need if we don't wanna compromise on fidelity.
 
The A77 has to be modded for 15ips. There were factory-modded units, but it wasn't the default.
The B77 had a high speed model (B77HS) which runs at 7.5 and 15ips, these turn up fairly regularly. The PR99 was for broadcast and is AFAIK most widely available in the 7.5/15 version.

The B77 is a nice machine, but some of them have a problem where they don't fast-wind anymore, mine among them. I'm not sure what causes it, but since it seems to be a drop in power output that also affects the pinch roller solenoid, it could be the PSU or - and I hope not - the actual motor windings. If you're looking for one, try and make sure it is fast winding properly. (If it winds slowly and the tape is new, that's a very bad sign)

Incidentally, the PR99 MK2 and MK3 have an electronic counter, and I believe a Return-to-zero feature. The MK1, the B77 and A77 all have a mechanical counter, driven by a pair of belts. These are the only belts in the machine, though - the whole thing is direct drive.
 
WarmJetGuitar said:
We're using a Fostex R8 and a Fostex Model 80. I prefer the M80 over the R8 but both sounds pretty good.
Is the Sony you mention a sound card or a harddisc recorder?

Well, we release our album on vinyl, on Bandcamp and maybe cassette. Would be nice to work completely analog for the vinyl release if it don't cost a fortune or will be noisy. But yeah, we sure need to do digital mastering regardless as it would be stupid to exclude people who's too broke or deaf to have a record player.
Click to expand...

It's a standalone CD recorder, it just operates like a cassette deck. I know what you mean about keeping it all analogue for the vinyl release but you may have a problem finding a pressing plant that accepts 1/4" tape. Then there's the issue of your machine and theirs being in calibration. I looked into vinyl pressing for my band's releases (I listen almost exclusively to vinyl) and it seemed that most places want it in a digital format (which seems sort of ironic). I could be wrong though. And yeah, as I realised with my band, if you want lots of people to listen to your music, you have to grudgingly release it on a digital format.
 
The weak link in your chain is A/D conversion, so I would get that taken care of before you worry about a reel-to-reel mastering deck.

If you want killer converters I’ve been recommending the HHB CDR-850 stand-alone CD recorder for years.

HHB CDR850 Professional

Fostex has one too, Model CR300

Fostex CR300

The CDR-850 and the CR300 are the same on he inside, both made by Pioneer, based on the venerable PDR-555RW.

The converters are great and you convert directly to Redbook CD 16/44.1. If your end product is CD and/or MP3 and you’re not doing any digital editing it’s a waste of time to convert to any higher bit depth and sampling rate. The quality of the converters is most important anyway and they’re not all created equal. You can find plenty of sucky 24-bit converters. Another nice thing about a professional stand-alone CD recorder is you kill two birds with one stone… good A/D conversion and you have a great stereo mixdown device as well.

Another route would be to get a good soundcard, preferably with a breakout box with eight analog inputs or more so you can record eight tracks from your R8 or M80 all at once. I recommend either of the first two Layla units made by Echo Audio; the original Layla (Event Echo) 20-bit and the second generation Layla24. The original Layla does 20/48 and the Layla24 will do 24/96, but I’ve never had a good reason to do anything higher than 24/48. That’s my standard bit depth and sampling rate. I would be just as happy with 20/48 of the original Layla. They both sound fantastic and to this day, ten years later nothing else has come along that’s impressed me enough to “Upgrade.” In fact, a lot of cheap crap has come along that makes me glad I held on to these. The Echo units were made in USA and well ahead of their time. You’ll need a PC or MAC with a standard PCI slot for the card. The Layla’s go for a song on eBay, but be careful because some sellers have them listed without the PCI card and connecting cable, which you must have. The breakout box alone is just a nice doorstop without them.

www.pcrecording.com

Event Layla


When/if you want to get a low-cost yet quality analog mixdown deck get a Tascam 22-2. Fostex M20 or Revox B77 and be happy. They all sound great. I favor Tascam because so many of the parts are still available from the parts department.
 
Thanks for the advice, I bet you're right about the AD-converters, the cheap Fostex machines (especially the Model 80) sounds brilliant to my ears when recording hot (peaking between -3 and +3 depending on the instrument). A bandmate of mine got an M-Audio, maybe that will do the trick - otherwise I'll be living really low-key some time to get a Revox or similar machine. Will a Revox have a better signal to noise ratio than the Fostexes? I dig the sound of Fostex but their shortcoming is the SNR. As I'm a retard when it comes to math I can't tell next to nothing from the decibel scales - so if someone could tell me about their experience with third generation copies and the theory behind the decibels mentioned in SNR I would be grateful.

Direct to CD wouldn't be that nice as their frequency response isn't on the same level as vinyl or tape and we're releasing the best stuff on vinyl. I can tell the difference between CD and 96000. It's subtle but its there.

And yeah, it's a huge paradox that vinyls is often cut from CD's. The 90's were often analog recording trying to sound digital and released digital, today is digital recording trying to sound analog and released on vinyl. Strange beyond belief.
I believe that the label distributing our stuff can cut vinyl directly from tape.

I always test second hand equipment - after a Tascam 38 nightmare with hours of reparing and a dead capstain motor I'm aware that if a deal sounds too good to be true it probably is.
 
Sure, as I said if your end product is CD or mp3 the stand-alone CD burner is an excellent choice, especially those made by Pioneer… The Pioneer PDR-555RW, HHB CDR-850 or the Fostex CR300. All things being equal, what you’re hearing for the most part is the difference between 16-bit and 20-bit or 24-bit word depth. Most people can detect a difference between 16-bit and 20-bit, but not so much between 20-bit and 24-bit. The jump from 16 to 20 is a big one.

If you want to keep a pure analog chain from tracking to mastering to vinyl then you don’t have to worry about converters. If you do take a trip through digital land at some point, trust me… anything above 24/48 or even 20/48 is mostly horse feathers and moonbeams. If you opt for cheap 24-bit converters (everyone makes them these days) and 96k sampling rate your results will vary greatly regardless what the numbers say. So again, you can A/B a well-designed set of converters at 20/48 with another set at 24/96 and your ears may tell you to go with the the 20/48.

Be careful out there…

P.S. Don’t worry about one more analog generation between your tracking deck and your mastering deck. It’s no big deal. If you’re only bouncing once between the two Fostex decks and then mixing down to an analog mastering deck everything is just peachy. Back in the day you would see a lot more generations than that from tracking to final product.
 
Beck said:
The weak link in your chain is A/D conversion, so I would get that taken care of before you worry about a reel-to-reel mastering deck.

If you want killer converters I’ve been recommending the HHB CDR-850 stand-alone CD recorder for years.

HHB CDR850 Professional

Fostex has one too, Model CR300

Fostex CR300

The CDR-850 and the CR300 are the same on he inside, both made by Pioneer, based on the venerable PDR-555RW.

The converters are great and you convert directly to Redbook CD 16/44.1. If your end product is CD and/or MP3 and you’re not doing any digital editing it’s a waste of time to convert to any higher bit depth and sampling rate. The quality of the converters is most important anyway and they’re not all created equal. You can find plenty of sucky 24-bit converters. Another nice thing about a professional stand-alone CD recorder is you kill two birds with one stone… good A/D conversion and you have a great stereo mixdown device as well.

Another route would be to get a good soundcard, preferably with a breakout box with eight analog inputs or more so you can record eight tracks from your R8 or M80 all at once. I recommend either of the first two Layla units made by Echo Audio; the original Layla (Event Echo) 20-bit and the second generation Layla24. The original Layla does 20/48 and the Layla24 will do 24/96, but I’ve never had a good reason to do anything higher than 24/48. That’s my standard bit depth and sampling rate. I would be just as happy with 20/48 of the original Layla. They both sound fantastic and to this day, ten years later nothing else has come along that’s impressed me enough to “Upgrade.” In fact, a lot of cheap crap has come along that makes me glad I held on to these. The Echo units were made in USA and well ahead of their time. You’ll need a PC or MAC with a standard PCI slot for the card. The Layla’s go for a song on eBay, but be careful because some sellers have them listed without the PCI card and connecting cable, which you must have. The breakout box alone is just a nice doorstop without them.

www.pcrecording.com

Event Layla


When/if you want to get a low-cost yet quality analog mixdown deck get a Tascam 22-2. Fostex M20 or Revox B77 and be happy. They all sound great. I favor Tascam because so many of the parts are still available from the parts department.
Click to expand...

Hey Beck,

I'm in a similar boat myself as the OP --- recording to a Fostex R8 and curious what to do for mixdown, as I don't have a 2-track R2R.

Regarding the converters, how do you know good ones from bad ones ... other than by listening? I don't know of a way that I'd be able to A/B a bunch of different units. Is there something in the numbers that will give you an idea?

I have an M-Audio Delta 1010LT, which I use on my DAW when I record stuff for work. It sounds fine to me, but I haven't compared it against anything else. Do you know if the converters in it are good enough to mix down to?

M-AUDIO - Delta 1010LT - 10-In/10-Out PCI Virtual Studio

Thanks
 
P.S. Don’t worry about one more analog generation between your tracking deck and your mastering deck. It’s no big deal. If you’re only bouncing once between the two Fostex decks and then mixing down to an analog mastering deck everything is just peachy. Back in the day you would see a lot more generations than that from tracking to final product.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that's the information I needed. Just expected that the difference between Studer J37 and Fostex-machines would be so big that I couldn't rely on late 60's methods. I'll be going for a Revox, Tascam or Fostex. There's plenty of nice B77's around here but hardly any Tascam, it seems Fostex for some reason was way bigger in Denmark.

For the second generation we made it to so far I find that recording with a bit more treble than we need is a nice way to keep the noise down.
 
famous beagle said:
Hey Beck,

I'm in a similar boat myself as the OP --- recording to a Fostex R8 and curious what to do for mixdown, as I don't have a 2-track R2R.

Regarding the converters, how do you know good ones from bad ones ... other than by listening? I don't know of a way that I'd be able to A/B a bunch of different units. Is there something in the numbers that will give you an idea?

I have an M-Audio Delta 1010LT, which I use on my DAW when I record stuff for work. It sounds fine to me, but I haven't compared it against anything else. Do you know if the converters in it are good enough to mix down to?

M-AUDIO - Delta 1010LT - 10-In/10-Out PCI Virtual Studio

Thanks
Click to expand...

Never been a fan of the Delta's. Ok for a budget card I suppose, but you can do much better. If it sounds fine to you and works for you that's the bottom line. I choose sound cards based on how well they get out of the way and let my silky smooth analog tracks sound as much like they did as possible before conversion. Everyone and their grandmother make sound cards and interfaces so it can be a daunting task finding a good one. Honestly, when it comes to equipment selection I've led a charmed life. Most things I choose just end up being classics and well regarded when proven in the field. So I don't know... prayer? A guardian angel with a good ear? I've auditioned a lot of equipment in my life. Sure I look at the specs, but mostly I listen, take the cover off and look inside... and if I like it I take it home... more or less the same I've done with girls... you just kinda know and there're sparks, sometimes despite the specs.

So anyway, in this case I still recommend the Echo Laylas, which had great reviews when they came out over ten years ago, which made me curious. And now a decade later they’ve proven hard to top… IMO. Same with the Pioneer CD recorders like the 555RW, HHB CDR-850 and Fostex CR300. You try things, it works, so you keep doing it and try not to fix things that aren’t broken by “Upgrading” for no good reason at all except another year has passed and the new models are out… which is no good reason at all.

And besides, Layla means “Nightfall” in Hebrew, which is kinda cool. And since I’m a night owl… it just seemed right and the rest is history.
 
Just a quick one: I can pick up a Fostex E-2 with very minimal wear tomorrow for about £200 - the guy bought it from new and hardly used it. Should I go for it?
 
Tested the Fostex E-2 yesterday and it sounded absolutely brilliant! No noise even at low input levels and really warm, fat sound. The seller needed to transfer some old tapes to his DAW and I can pick it up on monday.
The heads looks like new.
Only have one worry: during testing there was a very subtle tinitus-like squeel but when we recorded on the tape next time the misbehaviour was gone. Anything I should be aware of or just some kind of user error?

Only shortcoming is that it doesn't look as cool as a Revox or Studer but its less important. This machine sounds very damm proffessional.
 
Do you mean the mechanism was squealing, or there was a squeal in the audio? In the first case, it might be an issue with the tape (did you use your own or tape that came with it?) or possibly the roller - which may be a bit of a problem if it is, as there aren't going to be many new ones. You might be able to use an R8 roller, otherwise if it does go bad you'll have to get it rebuilt.

If it's the audio that squealed, I'm not sure what to suggest.
 
The mechanics was flawless. It was a squeel in the sound but the input levels was odd when it occured and it wasn't there the next time. Strange, huh?

Using a roll of Maxell the guy had around.
 
hopefully, the current owner doesn't gum up the machine with sticky shed transferring his tapes.
 
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