Every so often when I listen to jazzradio.com I hear a song that is complete poo

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mshilarious

mshilarious

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And I look to see who it was. Today's winners:

Wes Montgomery - forgot this song, but it was like ten hours of soloing in octaves.

Pat Metheny "Last Train Home"


Discuss.
 
mshilarious said:
And I look to see who it was. Today's winners:

Wes Montgomery - forgot this song, but it was like ten hours of soloing in octaves.

Pat Metheny "Last Train Home"


Discuss.
Click to expand...

You're an idiot.

You can close this thread now.:p
 
Have you heard that Metheny tune? I was actively hoping for death. That, or somebody would come and change the channel :(
 
OK, so I changed to the "guitar jazz" channel. Most of these tunes make me wish for the death of millions, preferably white people who play jazz guitar. Why does guitar suck so bad at jazz?

All of us play a crappy, boring instrument, it's time we just admit it :(
 
mshilarious said:
ok, so i changed to the "guitar jazz" channel. Most of these tunes make me wish for the death of millions, preferably white people who play jazz guitar. Why does guitar suck so bad at jazz?

All of us play a crappy, boring instrument, it's time we just admit it :(
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important thread warning MSH talking bollox


Look out below. More bollox predicted in the area soon. The possibility of bollox is increasing as the night wears on. Tomorrow should be bollox free if MSH blows over and heads out to sea. The rest of the week should see the region free from MSH and the bollox that it can bring. The weekend will see MSH returning to the area so more bollox is to be expected. There could be heavy bollox on Saturday night as MSH will be hanging over the area without any reason to blow over.
 
mshilarious said:
And I look to see who it was. Today's winners:

Wes Montgomery - forgot this song, but it was like ten hours of soloing in octaves.

Pat Metheny "Last Train Home"


Discuss.
Click to expand...

I want Last Train Home played at my funeral.

Muttley's right. Bollox.
 
Alright you want bollox, two reasons why jazz guitar sux:

- Physics. Guitar is acoustically less dynamic (meaning the spread between quietest and loudest possible sound) than just about any other jazz instrument, except perhaps bass. In spite of that fact, most jazz guitarists aspire to play the instrument in a manner that further limits that dynamic range and even expression, or use amplification in a manner so as to overcome that limitation. Can you imagine Coltrane never having overblown a sax? That's the way most jazz guitarists play.

- History. You could wipe guitar off the face of jazz history and it would make little difference in the development of jazz. I mean, could you imagine jazz history without drums? piano? saxophone? trumpet? even bass? Pretty tough to do. I'd put vibes, bone, and maybe even flute ahead of guitar too. It's like the 20th most important jazz instrument.

I think the problem starts with the cult of the guitar hero in rock music. A bunch of rock weenie guitarists think, hey, I can play jazz too! No you can't. You suck!

That doesn't explain Wes though. Hey, Wes, octaves was a good idea, in doses of four bars at most. After that, it's time to move on . . .

Classical guitar sucks too. A guitar concerto, that's a funny idea. Hey everybody, if we play really quietly, then maybe the audience can hear the guitarist! :rolleyes: All concerti suck as a rule, with some exceptions but not many. I'm pretty sure none of them are for guitar.
 
Case study:

[video=youtube;<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/MOm17yw__6U&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/MOm17yw__6U&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>]video[/video]

OK, it starts pretty good and expressive, rather dynamic. He starts the octaves at 1:25. Pretty good until 1:46, gets kinda boring there. Notice the lack of dynamics compared with his single note stuff. Check out the ppp at 2:10 vs. 2:40~3:00ish, much improved dynamics vs. the octave sections. Also notice something else--he doesn't use vibrato with octaves, probably because he only seems to demonstrate the "blues" side-to-side vibrato rather than the up&down classical vibrato.

That's just one man's technique, but what happens to all jazz guitarists who follow him? Pretty much they all do the same thing from apparent lack of creativity, except for the fusion guitarists. Don't get me started on fusion :mad: :p
 
Basing all jazz guitar on Wes is like basing your opinion of all jazz piano on Monk.
 
notCardio said:
Basing all jazz guitar on Wes is like basing your opinion of all jazz piano on Monk.
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Or basing saxophone on Coltrane? Is there a point there?

Fact is jazz guitar gets worse from Montgomery, not better. Everything gets worse after 1970. These facts are not disputable . . .
 
mshilarious said:
Alright you want bollox, two reasons why jazz guitar sux:

- Physics. Guitar is acoustically less dynamic (meaning the spread between quietest and loudest possible sound) than just about any other jazz instrument, except perhaps bass. In spite of that fact, most jazz guitarists aspire to play the instrument in a manner that further limits that dynamic range and even expression, or use amplification in a manner so as to overcome that limitation. Can you imagine Coltrane never having overblown a sax? That's the way most jazz guitarists play.

- History. You could wipe guitar off the face of jazz history and it would make little difference in the development of jazz. I mean, could you imagine jazz history without drums? piano? saxophone? trumpet? even bass? Pretty tough to do. I'd put vibes, bone, and maybe even flute ahead of guitar too. It's like the 20th most important jazz instrument.

I think the problem starts with the cult of the guitar hero in rock music. A bunch of rock weenie guitarists think, hey, I can play jazz too! No you can't. You suck!

That doesn't explain Wes though. Hey, Wes, octaves was a good idea, in doses of four bars at most. After that, it's time to move on . . .

Classical guitar sucks too. A guitar concerto, that's a funny idea. Hey everybody, if we play really quietly, then maybe the audience can hear the guitarist! :rolleyes: All concerti suck as a rule, with some exceptions but not many. I'm pretty sure none of them are for guitar.
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MSH, I like you. I always have, despite our occasional interwebz face offs but please you're are making an idiot of your self. I hate to see that in some one I like and who's opinion on some subject matter I respect. Stop it.

You can be a dick without making an ass of yourself.. ;)
 
muttley600 said:
MSH, I like you. I always have, despite our occasional interwebz face offs but please you're are making an idiot of your self. I hate to see that in some one I like and who's opinion on some subject matter I respect. Stop it.

You can be a dick without making an ass of yourself.. ;)
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Process of what? There isn't anything else to listen to. When I was a young kid I hated jazz. Then I liked fusion, then I hated it (still do, other than maybe Holdsworth who really wanted to sound like a sax, and late period McLaughlin, after he left the silliness behind). Then I listened to nothing but classical for a few years. Still like some of that, but really only Bach, Debussy, Stravinsky, and some of the other moderns/postmoderns. I guess Beethoven's late string quartets.

So now I'm old and jaded but actually quite mellow, except I don't like to be so mellow that I'm bored. I just don't hear hardly any jazz guitarists with an interesting musical idea. That's the only thing that interests me, a novel musical idea. Play a lick and I will turn the channel.

I mean, I am not a talented musician, AT ALL, but when I play something and record it and play it back, usually it's more interesting that what I get from the average jazz guitarist. But I've never played a single thing as interesting as practically anything Coltrane or Coleman played once. Even if that novel musical idea I have is "I suck", that is more courageous than most jazz guitarists dare to be. It's like they are so afraid of sucking that they just constantly retread. SUCK!!! That would be exciting, at least.

Oh well, odds are I've only got another 20 or 30 years to live :(
 
I'll tell you what the problem with that video is--no Glyn Johns method micing on the drum kit.

Now that's bollox!
 
While I'm goring sacred cows:

Although Kurosawa's Dreams has some of the best cinematography ever, the Martin Scorsese scene was absolute rubbish!
 
notCardio said:
I want Last Train Home played at my funeral.
Click to expand...

I want "Kickstart my Heart" played at my funeral.

Maybe if he doesnt like good Jazz...he should avoid the Jazz channel...listen to sting or Steely Dan so he can call himself a Jazz fan without actually needing to actually hear any.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
I want "Kickstart my Heart" played at my funeral.

Maybe if he doesnt like good Jazz...he should avoid the Jazz channel...listen to sting or Steely Dan so he can call himself a Jazz fan without actually needing to actually hear any.
Click to expand...

You're a bonehead. I don't listen to the "jazz channel", I listen to jazzradio.com, where I am a premium subscriber. Jazz is just about all I listen to. Usually I listen to Mellow Jazz, Cool Jazz, or Avant Garde channel. Sometimes Vocal Jazz or Bebop, but I'm not a huge bop fan. I like Miles, Coltrane, Coleman, Sun Ra, Red Norvo, Vince Guaraldi, Jay Hoggard. Off the top of my head, anyway.

Steely Dan sucks and so do you :p Sting has rancid BO and so do . . . you can guess the rest.
 
All jazz sucks. It's completely indulgent. The purpose is not to connect to the listener. the object is to go out there and pay shit that only you get.

I prefer nearly all music genres to jazz except for classical. Classical sucks too. Except the kind they play in sci fi movies like thus spake therathustra or "mars".

I will also go on record as hating nearly all ballads except the ballad of jed clampett.
 
After piano lessons when I was in 1st grade and french horn in band from 3rd through 6th grade, the only formal musical training I've had was 3 years of jazz guitar in high school (with, if you'll excuse the indulgence, a fantastic teacher who happened to not play guitar, but play trumpet - I can now discern a bit of pity in my memories of his interaction with me).

I send my celtic music loving bagpipe / guitar playing son to private school (with a great celtic music program), but live about 3 blocks from a public magnet arts high school with a *really good* music program of which only Jazz Guitar was remotely applicable to my son's musical skillset (the latter of those two words, that is). I so much wanted him to get in there because it's a) free, b) close, c) pretty good in many other respects, and d) free - but he had to audition - he procrastinated until the point where I had about 4 hours to teach him the barely relevant things I could remember from way back when. "Don't call us, we'll call you"... -- he's happier this way, but I'm not. He's got one more chance this year (maybe too late already, actually), but I'm less-than-optimistic.

I'll get him to watch that video.
 
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