C
CyanJaguar
New member
smokinjokin@one.net.au
Senior Member
Posts: 40
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 05-08-2001 01:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Everybody,
Just a quick question about monitoring - I have been using a pair of Event 20/20 Biamplified monitors for about three years now and I STILL cannot get good translation between control room and bedroom in my mixes. I listen and listen to commercial releases on them, and can never get what I mixed to be translated onto the consumers system. I have re-designed my mix room countless times with acoustic advice. They just seem to be too "nice" - they make me think it sounds good when there is still work to be done. But I have grown to like them for tracking, I can get good tones to tape with them; but mixing is just not happening for me on them.
I do, however, own a pair of NS10's. I left them to collect dust when I first got the Events, but now I am reconsidering their value in my setup. Quite a few Mastering engineers that have worked on my mixes suggest using them for mixdown, or at least setting them up for A/B comparison. I mean, SO MANY engineers still use them, at least a majority of engineers that I admire and respect and hope to emulate, in my own unique way. Just of the top of my head, I know that Bob Clearmontain uses NS10's for drum mixes - that could be old information but a lot of great work done by him in the past has been on the tens.
My question is, what is the industry standard for amplification of NS10's? I know amps can be as much of a personal choice as a vocal mike, but there must be a more common model that suits NS10's - if you could give me a ballpark figure of cost for your suggestion that would be appreciated. BTW I just read an article stating NS10's are no longer in production - do you predict they will be fetching hefty vintage prices in ten years???
Thanks for your advice - the EQ forum members will definitely get a mention in my ARIA speech.... (Australia's Grammys...kinda)
Adam B
SMOKIN & JOKIN RECORDING STUDIO - Sydney Australia
www.angelfire.com/music/smokinjokin
IP: Logged
Alison Waters
Member
Posts: 5
Registered: May 2001
posted 05-08-2001 01:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How are ya?! Not really going to answer your question but just let you we are in the same boat! I put my 10's in the garage a year ago and got KRK's and the new Mackie monitors. Problem is that I guess my 13 years of mixing on NS10's did something to me; I have finally got so fed up with mixes sounding so out of whack that I recently dusted them off. For a month now, I finally have got that old magic back! HA!
Cheers:
Jeff
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-08-2001 02:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Adam,
IMO Event are NOT great speakers. Too much lo's and hi's and nothing where that counts! Actually the bi-amped model is not as bad as the others in the serie but still a far cry from a reference monitor for my money. You're definitely be in a better position with the NS10's. Personnally I love Auratones!
Anyway it's always a good idea to try and have at least a couple different sets to reference on. I usually use three. Including some really cheap computer speakers that I almost always run in mono with just on speaker actually. It's great for balances and fx to direct ratio.
Hope that helps.
Eric.
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-08-2001 02:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for amps, try some Bryston's if you can find them. It always worked with NS10's for me. A studio I used to work at had an H&H MOSFET 800 that sounded quite nice with the Yamaha's.
My 2 cents, Eric.
IP: Logged
studio@indentmusic.com.au
Member
Posts: 15
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-08-2001 05:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No I just sold my Events for the Krk V6 and Alesis sub.
You really notice the mid range now.
That is what is missing from the Events.
My mixes have translated a lot better since.
How are you going with all the gear purchases.
I am happy with the Buzz pre amp, been getting good remarks on it.
Would like another, but promised my self not to buy anything for 2 months. Then brought a Bass Pod. (keep away from shops). Have to save money.
Want to buy a place and not pay rent for home and studio.
So I need a deposit.
------------------
Bye Dave
www.indentmusic.com.au
IP: Logged
masternfool
Senior Member
Posts: 71
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 05-08-2001 08:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used ns10s for a lot of years, got rid of the piercing boxes. I have been using genelec 1031a. For my smalls I have found nothing wrong with the alesis monitor1. They translate very well,I have even mastered projects on them.They are matched to the alesis amp. But for critical listening I always use the gens.
I also have a small pair of sonys from circuit city $100. for the pair!
have also used auratones but they just didn't have enough body to them.
My 2 cents, good luck..Harry
IP: Logged
Jon Atack
Senior Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 05-08-2001 04:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you on ditching the Events.
For your NS10s, I'd start by listening to a Bryston 4B. I'm using a C-Audio RA2001 which is also excellent.
When mixing in my studio, I reference to Dynaudio BM15a's + BX30 sub, NS10s (with the older tweeters, which I prefer), a mono Auratone (although I bought a pair of them) also powered by the C-Audio, and a Sony boombox in the lounge.
I use the NS10s all the time for drum mixing, and overall rock mixes at lower dB levels.
Good luck with your speech!
Jon
IP: Logged
Chipotle
Member
Posts: 4
Registered: May 2001
posted 05-08-2001 05:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been happy with the results from my 20/20 bas lately. I'm surprised that so many people dislike them. May I inquire as to what aspect of your mixes are disappointing you? Also, what cables are you using to the Events? The right interconnects can make a substantial difference, as well as quality speaker stands.
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-08-2001 06:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent setup Jon! That's what I like to use too (minus the sub)!
Also one of the best performance/price ratio I have got in the past was from Peavey PRM308's. They will tear apart the Event's in a second!
As to the cable/stands thing...
Well since they're amplified boxes it should not be that hard to get a clean signal to them. Stands and placement issues are gonna affect any speakers anyway. Why don't you start with something that gives you back what you send to it in the first place?
My 2 cents, Eric.
IP: Logged
Chipotle
Member
Posts: 4
Registered: May 2001
posted 05-08-2001 10:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Eric. The reason I mentioned cables & stands is that I noticed improvements from different cables and using well damped stands. Maybe these changes would be too subtle to help, but since those are the monitors he currently has it wouldn't hurt to try.
I haven't worked on all the monitors mentioned, but my Events definitely give back what I put in. Even though the question concerned amplification for NS-10's, I was curious as to the specific problems Adam was having with his mixes done on the Events, ie too bassy, bright, vocals/guitars/drums too loud, in the interest of possibly giving him a specific suggestion or perhaps learning of something to be wary of in my own mixes.
IP: Logged
Loco
Senior Member
Posts: 188
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 05-09-2001 12:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by smokinjokin@one.net.au:
> Just of the top of my head, I know that Bob Clearmontain uses NS10's for drum mixes - that could be old information but a lot of great work done by him in the past has been on the tens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to cool you down, Bob and the Lord-Alge brothers use the NS-10 along with a Teledyne Subwoofer. And they listen most of the time from the Gens 1034/1038
Use whatever speaker you're familiar with, and one that won't lie to you. Personally I've found the Mackies and the Gens s30/1034 excellent references. I also have wired a pink&purple girl toy radio to the headphone system just to see if everybody will be able to hear the vocals and the snare.
IP: Logged
smokinjokin@one.net.au
Senior Member
Posts: 40
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 05-10-2001 03:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the response from this forum never ceases to thrill me - love having contact with you people to give me help and advice. . .
Now that a few people have mentioned it I tend to agree - the Events are exaggerated in the top and bottom - the midrange is defintely where my "translation" problem occurs. I listen to a lot of 90's alternate rock so I hear a very distinct "wall of guitars" in my head when I go to mix - I get it absolutely cranking on the Events, but take it home and play it on my passive 3 way hi-fi speakers and the guitars just turn to mush, and they drop down by at least 6db maybe more, along with everything else in the low mid range. Chipotle, I have tried getting good stands (it did help) and also gold plated balanced audio lines from the desk to the monitors. It definetly improved the balance, but still I have the above mentioned trouble. I am starting to think, after the comment from Jeff, that I have listened to passive speakers all my life, and while powered bi-amplified speakers may be superior to NS10's, I may not be accustomed to them - even though I have tried to get them to work for me over the past 3 - 4 years!
Dave, thanks again for your advice on my last question in the forum about what order of gear purchases I should follow to get out of my "project" studio sound. Dave, I printed out your advice and it is now a blueprint to what I get - very valuable email that one, my friend. Sounds like you are living my life right now, torn between existing on this planet and buying a new peice of pro audio gear... hey we should start a group lotto pool - seems the only way I'm gonna get to where I want before I'm 60.
Byrston amps seem to get the most votes so far for a good amp on NS10's - never heard of them - any ballpark figures on cost? Please state what currency. What is a good power rating for the tens? I have heard of some studios using very powerful amps on them and just dont turn them up too far (the claim is better transient response) - any thoughts?
Gotta say, my mate has a home setup with the Alesis monitor ones and they sounded real boxy - very dull too. He wasn't using an Alesis amp though. BUT his mixes translate pretty good... he does mostly electronic based music. Cheater.
Its funny how one persons ultimate hate is the other persons reliable standard? Here we have Chipotle saying they (events) are the most accurate monitor they have used - and if it works FOR YOU don't ever let someone tell you different. We also have Loco stating the Mackies are his standard reference. I auditioned the Events alongside the Mackies in the store and almost laughed aloud when I heard the comparison. And I have never seen a model of monitor that cops so much shit from this forum! But Loco and many other pro mixers use them - or did Mackie throw around some cash for comment??? I heard that Yamaha did the same thing when the NS10 came out, sending a pair to every big name facility that would be photographed in the near future. How many pro studio photos DONT have a pair of white cone NS10's in them?
Keep the amplifier recommendations comin!
Adam B
SMOKIN & JOKIN RECORDING STUDIO - Sydney Australia
www.angelfire.com/music/smokinjokin
IP: Logged
studio@indentmusic.com.au
Member
Posts: 15
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-11-2001 01:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Adam,
Try searching google.com for Usenet stuff on amps for the NS10's.
I am pretty sure there has been some threads here as well.
I actually liked my Passive 20/20 with my denon amp better then the bi-mped I tested when checking out speakers. Although the room was different.
After he Krk my next 2 picks were
Tannoy system 1000, Liked better then 800 although a little bid for nearfield.
and the Yamaha MSP10's were not bad as well.
I am going to a have a "where to now session" Tuesday night, I am renting small place. Would like to buy a larger place, just to expensive.
So I am going to re-vamp my place, maybe extensively, maybe just buy it?.
------------------
Bye Dave
www.indentmusic.com.au
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-11-2001 03:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam, there is nothing wrong per se with a bi-amped two-way design. There are plenty of great and very usable small monitor systems designed that way, the Events are just not one of them. Nor are the Mackies IMO. You'll just have to pay a bit more if you really want acceptable performance.
Just my opinion...
Eric
IP: Logged
dave-G
Member
Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-11-2001 02:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps more important than what amp you use is which brand of toilet paper you'll tape over the tweeters. In extensive double-blind and phase-cancellation tests, we found that pink Charmin yields the best results.
-dg
IP: Logged
jthomp@hotmail.com
Member
Posts: 1
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 05-14-2001 10:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Folks! I suggest checking out the Event PS8's. They are probably the most underatted monitors on the market. They have translated pefectly for me- I have mixed on most major monitors including the NS10's.
Peace
Jthomp
Senior Member
Posts: 40
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 05-08-2001 01:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Everybody,
Just a quick question about monitoring - I have been using a pair of Event 20/20 Biamplified monitors for about three years now and I STILL cannot get good translation between control room and bedroom in my mixes. I listen and listen to commercial releases on them, and can never get what I mixed to be translated onto the consumers system. I have re-designed my mix room countless times with acoustic advice. They just seem to be too "nice" - they make me think it sounds good when there is still work to be done. But I have grown to like them for tracking, I can get good tones to tape with them; but mixing is just not happening for me on them.
I do, however, own a pair of NS10's. I left them to collect dust when I first got the Events, but now I am reconsidering their value in my setup. Quite a few Mastering engineers that have worked on my mixes suggest using them for mixdown, or at least setting them up for A/B comparison. I mean, SO MANY engineers still use them, at least a majority of engineers that I admire and respect and hope to emulate, in my own unique way. Just of the top of my head, I know that Bob Clearmontain uses NS10's for drum mixes - that could be old information but a lot of great work done by him in the past has been on the tens.
My question is, what is the industry standard for amplification of NS10's? I know amps can be as much of a personal choice as a vocal mike, but there must be a more common model that suits NS10's - if you could give me a ballpark figure of cost for your suggestion that would be appreciated. BTW I just read an article stating NS10's are no longer in production - do you predict they will be fetching hefty vintage prices in ten years???
Thanks for your advice - the EQ forum members will definitely get a mention in my ARIA speech.... (Australia's Grammys...kinda)
Adam B
SMOKIN & JOKIN RECORDING STUDIO - Sydney Australia
www.angelfire.com/music/smokinjokin
IP: Logged
Alison Waters
Member
Posts: 5
Registered: May 2001
posted 05-08-2001 01:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How are ya?! Not really going to answer your question but just let you we are in the same boat! I put my 10's in the garage a year ago and got KRK's and the new Mackie monitors. Problem is that I guess my 13 years of mixing on NS10's did something to me; I have finally got so fed up with mixes sounding so out of whack that I recently dusted them off. For a month now, I finally have got that old magic back! HA!
Cheers:
Jeff
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-08-2001 02:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Adam,
IMO Event are NOT great speakers. Too much lo's and hi's and nothing where that counts! Actually the bi-amped model is not as bad as the others in the serie but still a far cry from a reference monitor for my money. You're definitely be in a better position with the NS10's. Personnally I love Auratones!
Anyway it's always a good idea to try and have at least a couple different sets to reference on. I usually use three. Including some really cheap computer speakers that I almost always run in mono with just on speaker actually. It's great for balances and fx to direct ratio.
Hope that helps.
Eric.
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-08-2001 02:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for amps, try some Bryston's if you can find them. It always worked with NS10's for me. A studio I used to work at had an H&H MOSFET 800 that sounded quite nice with the Yamaha's.
My 2 cents, Eric.
IP: Logged
studio@indentmusic.com.au
Member
Posts: 15
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-08-2001 05:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No I just sold my Events for the Krk V6 and Alesis sub.
You really notice the mid range now.
That is what is missing from the Events.
My mixes have translated a lot better since.
How are you going with all the gear purchases.
I am happy with the Buzz pre amp, been getting good remarks on it.
Would like another, but promised my self not to buy anything for 2 months. Then brought a Bass Pod. (keep away from shops). Have to save money.
Want to buy a place and not pay rent for home and studio.
So I need a deposit.
------------------
Bye Dave
www.indentmusic.com.au
IP: Logged
masternfool
Senior Member
Posts: 71
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 05-08-2001 08:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used ns10s for a lot of years, got rid of the piercing boxes. I have been using genelec 1031a. For my smalls I have found nothing wrong with the alesis monitor1. They translate very well,I have even mastered projects on them.They are matched to the alesis amp. But for critical listening I always use the gens.
I also have a small pair of sonys from circuit city $100. for the pair!
have also used auratones but they just didn't have enough body to them.
My 2 cents, good luck..Harry
IP: Logged
Jon Atack
Senior Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 05-08-2001 04:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you on ditching the Events.
For your NS10s, I'd start by listening to a Bryston 4B. I'm using a C-Audio RA2001 which is also excellent.
When mixing in my studio, I reference to Dynaudio BM15a's + BX30 sub, NS10s (with the older tweeters, which I prefer), a mono Auratone (although I bought a pair of them) also powered by the C-Audio, and a Sony boombox in the lounge.
I use the NS10s all the time for drum mixing, and overall rock mixes at lower dB levels.
Good luck with your speech!
Jon
IP: Logged
Chipotle
Member
Posts: 4
Registered: May 2001
posted 05-08-2001 05:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been happy with the results from my 20/20 bas lately. I'm surprised that so many people dislike them. May I inquire as to what aspect of your mixes are disappointing you? Also, what cables are you using to the Events? The right interconnects can make a substantial difference, as well as quality speaker stands.
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-08-2001 06:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent setup Jon! That's what I like to use too (minus the sub)!
Also one of the best performance/price ratio I have got in the past was from Peavey PRM308's. They will tear apart the Event's in a second!
As to the cable/stands thing...
Well since they're amplified boxes it should not be that hard to get a clean signal to them. Stands and placement issues are gonna affect any speakers anyway. Why don't you start with something that gives you back what you send to it in the first place?
My 2 cents, Eric.
IP: Logged
Chipotle
Member
Posts: 4
Registered: May 2001
posted 05-08-2001 10:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Eric. The reason I mentioned cables & stands is that I noticed improvements from different cables and using well damped stands. Maybe these changes would be too subtle to help, but since those are the monitors he currently has it wouldn't hurt to try.
I haven't worked on all the monitors mentioned, but my Events definitely give back what I put in. Even though the question concerned amplification for NS-10's, I was curious as to the specific problems Adam was having with his mixes done on the Events, ie too bassy, bright, vocals/guitars/drums too loud, in the interest of possibly giving him a specific suggestion or perhaps learning of something to be wary of in my own mixes.
IP: Logged
Loco
Senior Member
Posts: 188
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 05-09-2001 12:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by smokinjokin@one.net.au:
> Just of the top of my head, I know that Bob Clearmontain uses NS10's for drum mixes - that could be old information but a lot of great work done by him in the past has been on the tens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to cool you down, Bob and the Lord-Alge brothers use the NS-10 along with a Teledyne Subwoofer. And they listen most of the time from the Gens 1034/1038
Use whatever speaker you're familiar with, and one that won't lie to you. Personally I've found the Mackies and the Gens s30/1034 excellent references. I also have wired a pink&purple girl toy radio to the headphone system just to see if everybody will be able to hear the vocals and the snare.
IP: Logged
smokinjokin@one.net.au
Senior Member
Posts: 40
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 05-10-2001 03:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the response from this forum never ceases to thrill me - love having contact with you people to give me help and advice. . .
Now that a few people have mentioned it I tend to agree - the Events are exaggerated in the top and bottom - the midrange is defintely where my "translation" problem occurs. I listen to a lot of 90's alternate rock so I hear a very distinct "wall of guitars" in my head when I go to mix - I get it absolutely cranking on the Events, but take it home and play it on my passive 3 way hi-fi speakers and the guitars just turn to mush, and they drop down by at least 6db maybe more, along with everything else in the low mid range. Chipotle, I have tried getting good stands (it did help) and also gold plated balanced audio lines from the desk to the monitors. It definetly improved the balance, but still I have the above mentioned trouble. I am starting to think, after the comment from Jeff, that I have listened to passive speakers all my life, and while powered bi-amplified speakers may be superior to NS10's, I may not be accustomed to them - even though I have tried to get them to work for me over the past 3 - 4 years!
Dave, thanks again for your advice on my last question in the forum about what order of gear purchases I should follow to get out of my "project" studio sound. Dave, I printed out your advice and it is now a blueprint to what I get - very valuable email that one, my friend. Sounds like you are living my life right now, torn between existing on this planet and buying a new peice of pro audio gear... hey we should start a group lotto pool - seems the only way I'm gonna get to where I want before I'm 60.
Byrston amps seem to get the most votes so far for a good amp on NS10's - never heard of them - any ballpark figures on cost? Please state what currency. What is a good power rating for the tens? I have heard of some studios using very powerful amps on them and just dont turn them up too far (the claim is better transient response) - any thoughts?
Gotta say, my mate has a home setup with the Alesis monitor ones and they sounded real boxy - very dull too. He wasn't using an Alesis amp though. BUT his mixes translate pretty good... he does mostly electronic based music. Cheater.
Its funny how one persons ultimate hate is the other persons reliable standard? Here we have Chipotle saying they (events) are the most accurate monitor they have used - and if it works FOR YOU don't ever let someone tell you different. We also have Loco stating the Mackies are his standard reference. I auditioned the Events alongside the Mackies in the store and almost laughed aloud when I heard the comparison. And I have never seen a model of monitor that cops so much shit from this forum! But Loco and many other pro mixers use them - or did Mackie throw around some cash for comment??? I heard that Yamaha did the same thing when the NS10 came out, sending a pair to every big name facility that would be photographed in the near future. How many pro studio photos DONT have a pair of white cone NS10's in them?
Keep the amplifier recommendations comin!
Adam B
SMOKIN & JOKIN RECORDING STUDIO - Sydney Australia
www.angelfire.com/music/smokinjokin
IP: Logged
studio@indentmusic.com.au
Member
Posts: 15
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-11-2001 01:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Adam,
Try searching google.com for Usenet stuff on amps for the NS10's.
I am pretty sure there has been some threads here as well.
I actually liked my Passive 20/20 with my denon amp better then the bi-mped I tested when checking out speakers. Although the room was different.
After he Krk my next 2 picks were
Tannoy system 1000, Liked better then 800 although a little bid for nearfield.
and the Yamaha MSP10's were not bad as well.
I am going to a have a "where to now session" Tuesday night, I am renting small place. Would like to buy a larger place, just to expensive.
So I am going to re-vamp my place, maybe extensively, maybe just buy it?.
------------------
Bye Dave
www.indentmusic.com.au
IP: Logged
groundcontrol
Senior Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-11-2001 03:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam, there is nothing wrong per se with a bi-amped two-way design. There are plenty of great and very usable small monitor systems designed that way, the Events are just not one of them. Nor are the Mackies IMO. You'll just have to pay a bit more if you really want acceptable performance.
Just my opinion...
Eric
IP: Logged
dave-G
Member
Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-11-2001 02:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps more important than what amp you use is which brand of toilet paper you'll tape over the tweeters. In extensive double-blind and phase-cancellation tests, we found that pink Charmin yields the best results.
-dg
IP: Logged
jthomp@hotmail.com
Member
Posts: 1
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 05-14-2001 10:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Folks! I suggest checking out the Event PS8's. They are probably the most underatted monitors on the market. They have translated pefectly for me- I have mixed on most major monitors including the NS10's.
Peace
Jthomp
