Epiphone G-400 and Roland Cube 30 Creating 'Shadow' Notes on Some Settings

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gvdv

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Hi Everyone,

I am really enjoying my new Epiphone G-400.

However, after having played around with it since getting it 4 days ago, there is one thing about it that I have noticed that I would liketo get your opinions on, and which I am slightly worried about.

When I plug the guitar into my Roland Cube-30 , combo and I play the 2 notes of what I assume is a major 3rd, on the 1st and 2ndstrings of the G-400 (e.g. an E note at the 5th fret of the B string and G noteat the 3rd fret of the E – 1st. String), I get a kind of 'sympathetic' or 'shadow' note sounding in addition to the 2 notes of the major 3rd..

This effect occurs when I play a major 3rd at any point on the 1st and 2nd strings, and as I move the frets at which I play the interval, the 'shadow' note changes in a logical fashion.

For example, when I play a D note on the 10th fret of the 1st string, combined with a B note on the 12th fret of the 2nd string, this causes a G note to be produced (it is exactly the same as the note at the 3rd fret of the 6th string). If I slide the interval down a fret, so that I am playing the 9th fret on the 1st string and the 11th fret on the 2nd string, I get an F# note, as if I am fretting the F# at the 2nd fret of the 6th string. If I move the combination up one fret, it is as if I am playing a G# at the 4th fret of the 6th string, and so on.

This 'shadow' effect does not occur on the amp's 'clean' channel, and similarly it also does not occur on the first and second of the amps 7 settings on the gain channel (the 'Acoustic', and 'Black face' emulations).

But, unfortunately, one can hear this effect in the following emulations: 'Brit Combo' 'Tweed', 'Stack Classic', 'Metal', and 'R-Fier'. That would be good news if I did not use any of these emulations, but of course I noticed that this happens because I use the 'Brit Combo' 'Tweed',and 'Stack Classic' all the time.

This effect also does not occur if I try any other kind of interval – only with the major 3rd..

The effect occurs on all 3 of the pick-up selection options.

Has anyone experienced this phenomenon before? If so, is there anything that I can do to get rid of it?

At first I thought that maybe one of the guitar strings wastouching the fingerboard or a fret or something, but that is not the case. I also tried palm-muting the strings that I was not playing, but that does not help, either. And I am quite confident that the speaker is fixed securely within the amp's cabinet, i.e., that it is not loose and moving back and forth.

Maybe this is purely a drawback of the amplifier emulations,or maybe, for some reason, it is what happens when you use this particular guitar with these settings on this particular amp. It is interesting that this happens with the emulations on the amp which are affected by gain – one cannot overdrive the 'Acoustic' and 'Black Face' emulations, even though they are on the gain 'channel'.

I would very much appreciate your opinions, and help withthis.

All the best,

Gvdv..
 
For a start, the intervals you mention (E - G, B - D)) are minor thirds, not major, but that's neither here nor there. The fact you are getting another note produced at the same time is all wrong unless you have some FX going that is designed to harmonize. The B-D could easily be the root and minor third of a B minor chord, so the note produced to harmonize would be a F# (the fifth), not a G, which then becomes a root of the G major chord (B bing th major 3rd and D the fifth).

Have you tried backing the F/x knob(s) down all the way on the amp to see if this makes a difference? The guitar can't be doing this, it's just an Epi SG, so it has to be the amp. Cna you borrow another guitar and try it with the amp?
 
mjbphotos said:
For a start, the intervals you mention (E - G, B - D)) are minor thirds, not major, but that's neither here nor there. The fact you are getting another note produced at the same time is all wrong unless you have some FX going that is designed to harmonize. The B-D could easily be the root and minor third of a B minor chord, so the note produced to harmonize would be a F# (the fifth), not a G, which then becomes a root of the G major chord (B bing th major 3rd and D the fifth).

Have you tried backing the F/x knob(s) down all the way on the amp to see if this makes a difference? The guitar can't be doing this, it's just an Epi SG, so it has to be the amp. Cna you borrow another guitar and try it with the amp?
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Hi mjbhotos,
....that's why I said, "...what I *assume* is a major 3rd.", so please go easy on the tone of your corrections there.

Also, I said in my post, the guitar does not do this acoustically (i.e., when unplugged), and also does not do this on all of the amp emulations (it does this on 5 of the 7 emulations on the 'gain' channel, and not on the 'clean' channel) - ergo, it is not the guitar itself, but could be the pick-ups, and - more likely - the amp emulations in tandem with the pick-ups. So, no need to borrow another guitar. I will, however, try it with my other guitars, but am sure that I would have noticed this over the last few years if it had happened with them.

I am not using any effects - should have said that in my post to make it clear, but assumed that not mentioning that, coupled with the detail I went into in the rest of the post would have made that obvious. Just to emphasize this, all of the onboard (amp) effects were dialled down to zero, and I was going directly from the guitar into the amp. So, no possibilities there.

The 'ghost' notes that I mentioned getting are the notes that I am getting - I would not otherwise have said so - regardless of what music theory would suggest.

It is quite a strange phenomenon, and still a mystery.

Thanks for responding, though.

Gvdv..
 
Hey, this is not the place to get upset if someone gives you a minor correction! ;)
No way it is the guitar/pickups doing this. Since it only happens with certain settings on the amp, that has to be the source. Some modeling amps automatically kick on certain FX when switched to certain emulations, which is why I asked if you have backed off the FX . Don't know about how the Roland works, but with Line 6 Spider, you need to 'wake up' the FX knob by touching it, then turning it up or down to reset whatever the auto setting has done to it. The Spider has a 'smart harmonics' FX that does exactly what you describe, and you can set the key.
 
mjbphotos said:
Hey, this is not the place to get upset if someone gives you a minor correction! ;)
No way it is the guitar/pickups doing this. Since it only happens with certain settings on the amp, that has to be the source. Some modeling amps automatically kick on certain FX when switched to certain emulations, which is why I asked if you have backed off the FX . Don't know about how the Roland works, but with Line 6 Spider, you need to 'wake up' the FX knob by touching it, then turning it up or down to reset whatever the auto setting has done to it. The Spider has a 'smart harmonics' FX that does exactly what you describe, and you can set the key.
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Hi,
Yes, I think that you are right about the amp (source) being the problem.

I did not know that modelling amps could produce digital artifacts.

Thanks for mentioning how the Line 6 Spider works in terms of effects: I do not recall reading anything in my research about the Cube 30 automatically turning on any effects, and I have made sure that they are all dialled down fully, so I would think that that is unlikely to be the cause.

I will try the guitar through a tube/valve amp in a couple of days, but I suspect that that will only confirm what I have experienced with the clean channel on the Roland Cube 30, and a couple of the other amp models on that amp. Others have suggested that I try the guitar through other modelling amps, and I think that that is a good idea.

Will post when I have more 'data'.

Thanks for your reply.

Gvdv.
 
gvdv said:
Not to me - that is the difference between intention and effect.
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well .... and that is the difference between getting advice and overreacting to a harmless joke.

But I'll just put you on ignore so i won't accidently get you upset.
 
Lt. Bob said:
well .... and that is the difference between getting advice and overreacting to a harmless joke.

But I'll just put you on ignore so i won't accidently get you upset.
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Glad that you are only running your own life. Good luck with those harmless jokes.
 
gvdv said:
Glad that you are only running your own life. Good luck with those harmless jokes.
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If you can't take a joke then you are on the wrong forum. Life is far too short to deal with people that act like 13 year old drama queens. Maybe you should try crappyguitar&toyamplifier.com
 
ocnor said:
If you can't take a joke then you are on the wrong forum. Life is far too short to deal with people that act like 13 year old drama queens. Maybe you should try crappyguitar&toyamplifier.com
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:laughings:
 
gvdv - how much experience do you have playing guitar (electric)? When you ask advice, don't expect people with more experience to just give you a short and simple ' here's what it is' - we try to help by making corrections and suggestions. If you make a big deal about a simple correction, it appears to others that you don't want to learn.
(BTW, I've been playing guitar 41 years, electric for 40 years, have an engineering degree [classes in electronics, computers and software - primitive as it was back then] so I know at least a little about guitars and amps, electronics, etc.)
 
OK, I looked at the Roland Cube 30X specs (assume you have that model - now discontinued). There is no harmonic FX, only flanger, phaser, tremolo and reverb/delay. Did you get this amp used from someone? I'm not sure how the amp or guitar could produce the effect you describe.

You mention that when you hit two notes, you get a third one - how are you playing those 2 notes - are you fingering a whole chord, but just picking those two strings? That could lead to a 'sympathetic' vibration of the other strings being fingered (but not played)
 
mjbphotos said:
OK, I looked at the Roland Cube 30X specs (assume you have that model - now discontinued). There is no harmonic FX, only flanger, phaser, tremolo and reverb/delay. Did you get this amp used from someone? I'm not sure how the amp or guitar could produce the effect you describe.

You mention that when you hit two notes, you get a third one - how are you playing those 2 notes - are you fingering a whole chord, but just picking those two strings? That could lead to a 'sympathetic' vibration of the other strings being fingered (but not played)
Click to expand...

Hi,
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, that is the Roland Cube I have - didn't know it was discontinued, but when I bought it used a couple of years ago it had just been updated (i.e. a newer version of the amp had been brought out with a tuner in it; mine does not have the tuner).

I am playing the intervals by fingering just the 1st. and the 2nd. strings.

Someone else mentioned that this phenomenon could be that of hearing 'undertones' - had never heard of those before, and found this page about them Undertone series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, but from reading the description about how undertones are produced, I am not sure if this is what is happening.

It is interesting that the phenomenon I am hearing only happens with my (brand new) Epiphone G-400, and not with the other three electrics I have, and that it is audible through the amp's speaker and headphone socket. As I mentioned above, this only happens on some of the amp's emulations, and not on others, and also is not present on the 'clean' channel.

Thanks for your questions and response.

Gvdv..
 
mjbphotos said:
gvdv - how much experience do you have playing guitar (electric)? When you ask advice, don't expect people with more experience to just give you a short and simple ' here's what it is' - we try to help by making corrections and suggestions. If you make a big deal about a simple correction, it appears to others that you don't want to learn.
(BTW, I've been playing guitar 41 years, electric for 40 years, have an engineering degree [classes in electronics, computers and software - primitive as it was back then] so I know at least a little about guitars and amps, electronics, etc.)
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Hi there again, mjbphotos,
For what it is worth, I have been playing guitar for 37 years, but I do not necessarily think that that means much - you can find people who have been playing for much less time who know more, and vice versa.

More to the point, I find it interesting that when I invite a little accountability by - very politely - pointing out that something you said felt rude to me, people become critical. I did not say, or imply, that that was your intention, but it was the result to me. Others might feel differently, and I would not dare to presume about their experience; similarly, I do not appreciate others presuming about my experience.

I operate on the basis that if someone says that I have offended them, regardless of whether or not I intended that, then I have two choices - I can ignore (or criticize) them, or I can apologize. In my adult life I have chosen to stop and consider what others' experience of me has been, and for the most part, have benefitted from that.

You seem to place value on the amount of time and experience one has accrued being an indication of knowledge about something, so I will tell you that in my professional experience I have thousands of hours experience helping others learn that kind of approach, and I have consistently been told that it has been of immeasurable help to those people.

I am not going to say anything more to anyone about this because, in line with my philosophy about this, I do not think that expressing conflict through criticism is beneficial.

I do very much appreciate your help on these forums.

All the best,

Gvdv.
 
We get a lot of people on these forums who don't know the most simple things, like how to adapt a 1/4" phone jack to a 1/8" headphone plug, so its always good find out how much the person you are trying to help knows.

Can you post a sound file of this strange harmonic phenomenon?
 
mjbphotos said:
We get a lot of people on these forums who don't know the most simple things, like how to adapt a 1/4" phone jack to a 1/8" headphone plug, so its always good find out how much the person you are trying to help knows.

Can you post a sound file of this strange harmonic phenomenon?
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Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining that.

Yes, will post a sound file soon - do you have any suggestions about good sites to do that from (myspace?)?

Gvdv.
 
& then we could get into a discussion about perceived language and received language as well as inference & implication, (the latter two often being mixed up).
"...but that's neither here nor there." ought to give an indication of intent - a) that the was an error that required correction (& we all do this to prevent someone else reading the posts from mislearning) and b) that whilst it is incorrect the fact/error has no great impact on the issue at hand.
All sorts of software involved in emulations & particularly when trying to copy valve - the harmonics, even & uneven etc are 1st point of call for the software engineer & then onto things that SOUND like they might somewhere, somehow, someday be not entirely dissimilar to the sound of a given amp.
 
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