"Enjoy the Ride"

[eyema_believer]

To give you guys an idea of how this works.

The client comes, sings and play her acoustic to a click. I end up with something like this:

She goes home, and I do something like this:

So, things I don't have control over are (at least without a fight): length of songs or song sections, questions about if a song section should even be there or not, the lack of timing in the vocal, the out-of tune-ness of the vocal, chord progressions, tempo.

Things I would have control over: sounds of instruments, instrumental arrangements, mix, etc....

This is a tough project, because I'm dealing with a writer whose work is anything but conventional.... if you catch my drift.

Peace!

~Shawn

 

[ido1957]

That's pretty cool. Your arrangement/production version is so much better than the original... Night and day really....

 

[XLR]

The arranged version sounds very good. I like the singer. It's a totally different conception than the original. How does the songwriter feel about the change?

Changing an arrangement can go so many different ways. Given the style of the original performance, personally, I'd probably arrange this one with the existing ac guitar replaced with one that was big and full, and a few ac gtr lead licks added. Just my own taste. But even with that I could see it sounding good to move to a full band arrangement like you've got here for second half of the song.

Whatever, I certainly can relate to the complexities of the situation you describe.

 

[DavidK]

To give you guys an idea of how this works.

We know how it works. Ultimately, we dont care.

We are the listeners, and you are presenting a product to us. What you are trying to say is "Doctor, other than the tumor, am I in good shape"? It doesnt work like that.

What you are really trying to do is to tell us what we are allowed to comment on, and what we are not. No can do, amigo. You are presenting a product. We dont have to hear individual tracks, we are all quite familiar with multi-tracking. You're saying that we are not doing it the right way. Umm, yes we are. We cannot look the other way if the vocals are bad, regardless who is the vocalist or who wrote the songs or who did whatever. YOU are presenting it, and YOU are the only one we can give feedback to.

So, things I don't have control over are (at least without a fight):

Then fight. Your name goes on this too. If you are the producer, produce it. Its not like Ashlee Simpson, Pink, and Paris Hilton are masters at singing to a click either, but the producer slices, dices and makes it sound right. A lot of that is in the tracking stage, but a lot is in the editing as well.

So, things I don't have control over are (at least without a fight): length of songs or song sections, questions about if a song section should even be there or not, the lack of timing in the vocal, the out-of tune-ness of the vocal, chord progressions, tempo.

You have control over plenty of that. Its all editing, and its the delicate act of persuasion. Make suggestions. Move parts around. Put your foot down, delicately or firmly. Your a fine musician, so exert your musicianship over the product in whatever way you can. Unless you are dealing with a totally unreasonable person, its possible and probable. If you show the client that you know what you are doing and know how to make a good product, they will usually be all ears. Thats what they are paying you to do. If they are not interested, plop down some music and cash the check, then move on.


Producing is a tough gig, man. When you start doing it for money, the dynamics change considerably. Music in general is brutal. I cant tell you how many times I have been playing quartets with 3 bad players and wanted to stand up and yell to the audience " I AM GOOD, THEY STINK". Nope, I am just part of the group of 4. What I CAN do is all behind the scenes, by diplomatically coaxing the best possible work out of the players. But when the product is delivered, I am in the same boat as everyone else, and the audience doesnt care who did what.

 

[eyema_believer]

We know how it works. Ultimately, we dont care.

We are the listeners, and you are presenting a product to us. What you are trying to say is "Doctor, other than the tumor, am I in good shape"? It doesnt work like that.

What you are really trying to do is to tell us what we are allowed to comment on, and what we are not. No can do, amigo. You are presenting a product. We dont have to hear individual tracks, we are all quite familiar with multi-tracking. You're saying that we are not doing it the right way. Umm, yes we are. We cannot look the other way if the vocals are bad, regardless who is the vocalist or who wrote the songs or who did whatever. YOU are presenting it, and YOU are the only one we can give feedback to.



Then fight. Your name goes on this too. If you are the producer, produce it. Its not like Ashlee Simpson, Pink, and Paris Hilton are masters at singing to a click either, but the producer slices, dices and makes it sound right. A lot of that is in the tracking stage, but a lot is in the editing as well.



You have control over plenty of that. Its all editing, and its the delicate act of persuasion. Make suggestions. Move parts around. Put your foot down, delicately or firmly. Your a fine musician, so exert your musicianship over the product in whatever way you can. Unless you are dealing with a totally unreasonable person, its possible and probable. If you show the client that you know what you are doing and know how to make a good product, they will usually be all ears. Thats what they are paying you to do. If they are not interested, plop down some music and cash the check, then move on.


Producing is a tough gig, man. When you start doing it for money, the dynamics change considerably. Music in general is brutal. I cant tell you how many times I have been playing quartets with 3 bad players and wanted to stand up and yell to the audience " I AM GOOD, THEY STINK". Nope, I am just part of the group of 4. What I CAN do is all behind the scenes, by diplomatically coaxing the best possible work out of the players. But when the product is delivered, I am in the same boat as everyone else, and the audience doesnt care who did what.

You speak the truth. I certainly didn't mean to say that you don't understand multitracking, or that you weren't giving the right kind of review. Unfortunately, I'm thinking that I'll be doing more of the plopping the music down and cashing the check on this one. It takes an incredible amount of bickering to get her to change an arrangement. I do that when the "three" all of a sudden becomes the downbeat, or something like that where it's almost impossible to do any editing if it's not changed, and then I'm still trying to get her to understand for two weeks how beat three can't all of a sudden be counted as one.
If I were responsible to a big record company, or someone who was paying several mortgage payments with each song I do for them, then that would be a different story.

Peace!

~Shawn

 

[DavidK]

Unfortunately, I'm thinking that I'll be doing more of the plopping the music down and cashing the check on this one. It takes an incredible amount of bickering to get her to change an arrangement.

In that case, you are kicking A$$! We do what we can do, and thats that. She should count her lucky stars that you've been a pro and put in the time to make HER project the best that you can. Its a shame she doesnt comprehend that if she placed it more in your hands, she would walk away with a better project. Such is life.

 

[steppingonmars]

Comprimise?

I listened to both tracks, seems like there is a comprimise between the two to me. The performance is not perfect, but does it have to be? Seems to me like you have to focus on her uniqueness and rawness as oppposed to trying to overproduce it. Yes the first mix is too raw, but I thought the second was overproduced. Just my opinion.
My sympathies go out to anyone who tries to make a living doing this, that's why I don't. I think this a great hobby, but probably a bad job. Anyone who is in a band or records music should take a management course before doing so on how to manipulate and persuade people. Anyone can keep a band together should get a job as a manager!

 

[rayc]

Yeah, night & day.
On listening to the original the verse suggested she was into Patti Smith (Horses era) in a big way & my head would have taken me in that direction with augmentation - sparse rock instrumentation with a John Cale sense of drama.
The chorus does suggest more of your take on things - a fatter, almost SanFran Psych interpretation.
You did wonders if for no other reason than dealing with that stray ringing string when she was playing.

 

[Xeries]

You are a very talented musician and producer, Shawn. There, I said it. Isn't that what you were looking for? You didn't expect us to say, "Wow, you got her to sing on key," or "Now she sounds good," did you?

You can put a doiley on a cow pie and guess what you end up with? A doiley on a cow pie. Someone needs to be honest with that singer and tell her that she's tone-deaf. That's about as effective as a blind air-traffic controller.

 

[eyema_believer]

Thanks everyone, for your input on this one.
Surely a tough row to hoe. I'll re-post when I get'r'done.

Oh well... I guess I could be digging ditches. I've got a total of 14 songs to do for her... nine are in various states of done-ness.

 

[Xeries]

Shawn, I applaud you for tackling this project. You are right in that this will not be easy. I feel that if anyone can do it, you can.

I still say that you should do some pitch correction with V-vocal. She'll never even know that you did it and think that she's great.

 

[eyema_believer]

Shawn, I applaud you for tackling this project. You are right in that this will not be easy. I feel that if anyone can do it, you can.

I still say that you should do some pitch correction with V-vocal. She'll never even know that you did it and think that she's great.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Wig.
Theres already pitch-correction on these songs. It's just the way she sings, sliding into every note, I can't have the settings too radical, or she'll sound like Cher in that one song. Or, sometimes, it pulls it to the wrong note....