Engineers in Rock Music

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Dizzy991

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Hi, I'm new to recording, I played with a band for about 7 years but now have taken an interest in lower end digital recording (after recording demos with my band on my 424 MKII). I've moved up to some lower end digital equipment and outboard gear and am recording bands for fun right now, just getting into the mindset for recording (and mixing ugh).

For the most part there are certain engineers I've really liked and was wondering if any of the members here would know how to develop your own sound as an engineer. As a guitarist I've developed my own sound but I've always found it interesting that certain engineers stamp their sound on an artist's work w/o overshadowing the actual artist. For me I love Toby Wright's (Alice in Chains) and Dave Jerden's (Jane's Addiction, Alice in Chains as well) work. Is their "sound" the result of just using the same mics, placement, outboard gear, from project to project?

Also, given today's entry level digital multitracks, is it possible to use mics like the SM57 and a digital multitrack from Roland, Korg, with some entry level compressors/effects etc and achieve radio ready material (with the addition of mastering of course)? I was lucky enough to record in a sweet studio with some old 2"/16 track reel to reel machine, this neve tube compressor, and a host of other things that were way beyond me since I was just into the musical aspect and couldn't really appreciate those items. As a result I'm very curious as to what the limits of these $800-$1500 machines are considering some of the compressors we went through were 2-3 times as much as the heart of my recording system! Thanks for any info.
 
intresting....

It would seem that an engineerrs sound in a lot of ways comes from his/her limitations. I'm sure that engineers have preferences for certain mics, processors, and such and that shapes their sound. As far as getting your own sound, reallly there is no way around it, we are all pretty limited here by our equipment, and we get what we can out of it. On thing that may give my recording a perticular sound would be my room... it's a big aluminum box basically with little sound treatment, it's live definitly but big enough to not be BAD. There are los of things to consider. Also I think who ever does the mixing has in a way the biggest role in the "feel" of a project. That is defintly where as engineer can place his sonic stamp...

-jhe
 
Hi Dizzy,

Well, I'll give you the straight answer: what makes or breaks an engineer is his ears and skill. Of course a great engineer can do better with great equipment than crappy equipment, but a great engineer will get a better sound with crappy gear than a hack will with top of the line gear.

Also, most engineers do not strive for a "signature" sound. They strive to be as invisible as possible. There are some *producers* who strive for a particular sound that can be identified with them, and some people like that. I don't, personally. I think it's gimmicky when you can identify, say, a Jeff Lynne production simply because it's got a bunch of Vocoder-ized backing vocals. That's cheesy IMO. As an engineer, you're there to serve the artists and bring out the best in them, not put your own "stamp" on a record. Of course, engineers and producers may both have great ideas and techniques that serve a particular artist well.

In any case, an engineer does not achieve a sound just by using the same equipment all the time. Engineers do what they do because of the way they perceive sound and can translate it using whatever equipment they have available. True, most engineers develop fondnesses for certain mics or preamps or compressers or consoles in the same way that musicians may develop a fondness for a certain instrument. But, the best engineers realize that their pet gear is not going to work in every situation. Learning to recognize the coloration and capabilities of equipment, and knowing what to select to enhance a particular song or vocalist or instrument, is part of what makes an engineer skillful. So is knowing what to do when you have only very limited equipment.

So, to answer your other question, can you get "radio quality" results from low end digital gear? Well, you COULD. But it would take a lot of skill and experience, just as it does to get "radio quality" sound from high end gear. There are lots of other factors that come into play too, like the acoustics in the room where you're recording, the quality of your electric company's power, and the quality of the instruments. Lots of people think they can buy a couple of ADAT machines or a Roland VS and make a CD in their bedroom that equals what's on the radio. And in theory, you could, but in practice, hardly anyone does. And of course, even the best home recordings are not going to match the best of what's on the radio. You will never get a sound on the Roland or Korg units that will rival a 2" 16 track through a Neve console. But fortunately, there is a lot of badly produced stuff on the radio these days so the standards you're competing with are not too high for the most part. :)

Anyway, if you are new to recording and have a VS or Korg or whatever, and a few cheap mics and pres, and you're not getting the sound you want, don't be too quick to blame the gear before you log a lot of hours and gain a lot of experience. You will only be continually frustrated and end up spending a lot of money to no good end. Stick with what you have, keep experimenting and over time you will get better. Then you'll be able to appreciate what you can do with more expensive gear, and you will also know whether or not you really need it.

Also, if you are considering buying one of the all-in-one workstations and haven't done so, I would not recommend the Roland anymore. They used to be the only kid on the block but now their competition has aced them. The Akai DPS16 will give you much better sounds for the same price, but if you can spend a little more, you should really get the Yamaha AW4416. It's the first of these standalone workstations that really does have pro level specs, and I have one on order myself. If you can't get good sounds out of this machine or the Akai, you can definitely bet that it's your fault and not the gear. :)

Good luck!
--Lee
 
flier's exactly right.... couldn't have said it better myself!

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
WOW!!!

Lee took the words right out of my mouth, and even managed to put them far more politely then I might of......:D

She is so correct in the assessment of what is possible with what you have. Truely, experience and dedication to the craft of recording is what produces "CD quality" results, not so much the gear.

I also agree that the standards are much lower now for audio. It is almost amazing what some people consider to sound "great" for a production stand point. Myself, I think Heart's Dog and Butterfly album is the finest sounding record ever made......:)

Anyway there Dizzy991, get yourself into the recording game for as cheap as possible and spend a lot of time doing so, only investing in new gear as you really need it. Don't get in a hurry and spend a lot of money to get what you "think" you need, because you really don't know what you need right now, and certainly, you have little foundation for making an intelligent decision on purchases. This is not slamming you, just the reality of the situation. People like Bruce, Lee, and I try to share the "truth" about audio production with people, utilizing our professional backgrounds in production, to hopefully offset some of the bogus hype equipment manufacture, and music store salesmen push on the unsuspecting. We don't have a whole lot of reason to lie about what you should throw your money towards, or price points for how many words we post....;)

So, there you have it from the peanut gallery....

Ed
 
Cool, thanks for all the advice. I pretty much expected the quality of a recording to come from the engineer rather than his gear, it's just like with music, Hendrix would sound better with a broomstick than I would with a 59 LP. I also don't plan to throw a ton of money into it anyways, I have some mics from my 4track days along with a compressor and effects box to go with my digital multitrack.

Aside from that, what do you people in the know consider as well produced songs? Also who are some top guys in rock as far as producing albums go. I personally am not into Templeton or Rock for the most part. Right now since I'm so new to recording I'm really only into Toby Wright and Dave Jerden, Rick Parashar is good too. I think they really do a good job mostly of capturing the signature sound of the bands they work with. I'm into classic rock but for some reason not big on the sounds, Bonzo's drum sound doesn't do it for me like it does most everyone else.

For album sounds I'm into I like Dirt and Boggy Depot (Alice in Chains and Jerry Cantrell) because of the heavy layered guitars, vocals, and monster drum sound. It might just be the song arrangements but I really dig the thick sound that's on those albums, not sure if any of you can attest or totally rip what I'm saying about those albums.

Thanks again for the advice
 
I'm pretty partial to the Steely Dan studio ethic - Roger Nichols engineering, Gary Katz/Donald Fagen producers. (But I don't push the talent the way Donald does!!!) ;)
Recordings are tight and clean, as are the song productions.

Other notable engineers are Bob Clearmountain and Tom Lord-Alge - I was impressed by the 2nd Collective Soul CD done by Bob. Daniel Lanois is another one.......

Bruce
 
Bob Clearmountain did the biggest/awesome/wonderfull drums i ever heard on New Model Army's "the love of hopeless couses". I love him for that sound :) lol
 
Hey Dizzy,

If you haven't done so already, go to Mix magazine's web site (www.mixonline.com) and register as a member (it's free!). Then go to the archives and find December 1998. There is a great interview with Dave Jerden where he spills the beans on a lot of his techniques! Also, check out the other Mix Master interviews; there is a wealth of information for you! Happy hunting!

Richt


P.S I hope it was cool to mention Mix here, it is a standard of the industry y'know!
 
there is no standard of who is the model engineer/producer.
some of the ones that have been listed are good, but it's in the end it's all a matter of taste. who do you think is a great engineer?
as far as finding your own sound goes...if i remember correctly you played guitar for 7+ years, and have your own guitar sound? there's your answer right there. make lots of recordings, have fun, and don't worry about it, because it doesn't really matter...it probably already exists and you don't know it yet.
auerole.
 
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