wheelema
Boner-obo
What would be the signal path for a electric guitar in a studio? I have a FMR RNP channel open, and am using a MOTU 2408 MK3 into the DAW running Sonar.
Todzilla
New member
I'm more of an analog guy, but I'd start with:
SM57->RNP->2408.
I would aim the 57 (or equivalent dynamic mic) at the cone of your amp speaker, just off the grill and move it around a bit to find the sweet spot.
How's that RNP? I'll bet it's pretty sweet.
SM57->RNP->2408.
I would aim the 57 (or equivalent dynamic mic) at the cone of your amp speaker, just off the grill and move it around a bit to find the sweet spot.
How's that RNP? I'll bet it's pretty sweet.
wheelema
Boner-obo
Todzilla said:
Well, actually, I've never licked it.
Ah haa haa haa... uh... ha... ha... (gulp).
... I think I am a wit, and I am half right! (and, no, I didn't think that up...)
I bought the RNP on a recommendation, no experience with anything else of any signficance.
So I shouldn't (couldn't?) run it via the RNP to the MOTU, or directly into the MOTU; I need to buy an amp and mic the amp? Any particular amp that you would recommend?
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Wheelema, don't take this too personally, but you are way ahead of yourself. You are asking how to record an electric guitar in a studio, and you really don't know diddly about electric guitars or recording. First of all, there are hundreds of types of electric guitars, some with passive pickups, some with active pickups, and some with both.
There are hundreds of types of guitar amplifiers, which vary from little headphone amps to monstrous stage setups that would blow the windows out of your studio. There are an unlimited number of guitar sounds that different guitarists prefer, and that sound may vary wildly from one song to another. So what you've said is, "Can anybody recommend a good motor vehicle, and then tell me where and how to drive it.?" A bulldozer? a Maserati?
Oh well, here's the short form. First, get on line and buy "The Recording Guitarist- A Guide for Home and Studio" by Jon Chappell. It's a little dated, but a good place to start. Essentially there are 2 ways to record a guitar, and sometimes both are used. There are a nearly infinite number of variations on those two techniques. The first is DI (direct insertion), where the guitar is plugged into a "DI box", which changes the high impedance (high-Z) output of an electric guitar to line level, and then is recorded directly. The other is by plugging the guitar into a guitar amplifier, and using one or more mics to record it, as you would any other sound source.
Some of the better guitar amps have direct line outs, so the guitar can be recorded both ways simultaneously. Then the sound can be blended for effect, or the DI output can be "re-amped", running the direct signal through whatever guitar amp you want, until you find the sound you're looking for, and re-recorded.
Within the last few years, "amp modeling" has begun to become more popular. An amp modeler is a form of DI box that uses digital technology to attempt to copy the sound of real guitar amplifiers and cabinets. THese boxes can then export the sound directly to a recorder, or output to a power amplifier and cabinet, disabling the cabinet model, and be recorded with microphones.
Now we get into opinion, which varies a lot, so these are mine, although I try to give room to differing opinions. Most engineers, in a perfect world, would prefer to use the right guitar amplifier with the right sound, in a good room, with a mic in front of it. Open backed cabs are often recorded with 2 mics, one in front, and one in back. Often, a more sensitive mic, called an ambient or "room" mic is used, backed off a bit, to capture the reflections of the sound off the walls of a hopefully good room. The classic technique is to put a well made cheap dynamic mic right up against the speaker grill, just off center, and move it around until you get the sound you want, looking for the so-called "sweet spot". Shure SM57, an $80 mic, is a favorite of many people for this, but people will recommend many, many, other mics for this.
Guitar is not often recorded DI, as only the better studios have a selection of amps for re-amping, and often the guitarist can't play properly while listening to a "dry" track. For this reason, DI recording is often done from the direct line out of a guitar amp, so the guitarist can hear the sound he expects to hear from the mic on the amp in his headphones, but the engineer gets the unprocessed track he wants to do whatever he wants to with it.
Regarding modelers, the jury is still out, but many people love them, and many people hate them. Regarding guitar amps, there are "clean" sounds with less distortion, and "dirty" sounds, where selective distortion is used on purpose as an effect. For many years in studios, Fender and Vox amps were the standard for clean sounds, and Marshall was the standard for dirty sounds, and many of these amps are still used and highly prized. Mesa became more commonly used for distortion in the 80's, and there are many other offerings from Soldano, Line 6, Crate, Ampeg, Peavey, and others. Personally, when it comes to amps, I'd rather have a Vox and a Marshall, but that's just me.
The good news is that recording studios usually use smaller amps, intended for practice or small gigs, because huge sound is not needed or useful for recording. Usually 30 watts is plenty, and many big time rock albums have been recorded with wussy little amps, such as a Fender Princeton. Personally, I use a modeler, a POD Pro, run into a Carver power amp, then to a Marshall cabinet, then mic'd. I also use a Fender Princeton, and believe it or not, a Crate MXR15 (the only Crate amp I've ever heard that did not sound like shit).
One of the problems with distortion from combo amps (amp and speaker in the same enclosure, rather than separate), is that to get really good distortion, the amp has to be cranked way up, which can get too loud in an enclosed space. The bigger studios put the amp and mic in another room. For small studios, the "monster-in-a-box" can be the solution. The amp is placed, with a mic, in a plywood box lined with carpet, and bolted shut, so it doesn't annoy the neighbors or blow your head off.
Aside from the amp lines above, the most popular modelers appear to be POD Pro XT (I find the cheaper floor model too noisy for recording), Johnson J-Station, and the Behringer V-AMP-2, which also comes in a cheap floor version and a rack mounted unit. Sorry for the long post, but this is recording electric guitar 101. I hope it helps.
As suggested above, the short answer is let the guitarist bring whatever amp he likes, stick an SM57 in front of it in a well treated room, find the sweet spot, and record it.-Richie
There are hundreds of types of guitar amplifiers, which vary from little headphone amps to monstrous stage setups that would blow the windows out of your studio. There are an unlimited number of guitar sounds that different guitarists prefer, and that sound may vary wildly from one song to another. So what you've said is, "Can anybody recommend a good motor vehicle, and then tell me where and how to drive it.?" A bulldozer? a Maserati?
Oh well, here's the short form. First, get on line and buy "The Recording Guitarist- A Guide for Home and Studio" by Jon Chappell. It's a little dated, but a good place to start. Essentially there are 2 ways to record a guitar, and sometimes both are used. There are a nearly infinite number of variations on those two techniques. The first is DI (direct insertion), where the guitar is plugged into a "DI box", which changes the high impedance (high-Z) output of an electric guitar to line level, and then is recorded directly. The other is by plugging the guitar into a guitar amplifier, and using one or more mics to record it, as you would any other sound source.
Some of the better guitar amps have direct line outs, so the guitar can be recorded both ways simultaneously. Then the sound can be blended for effect, or the DI output can be "re-amped", running the direct signal through whatever guitar amp you want, until you find the sound you're looking for, and re-recorded.
Within the last few years, "amp modeling" has begun to become more popular. An amp modeler is a form of DI box that uses digital technology to attempt to copy the sound of real guitar amplifiers and cabinets. THese boxes can then export the sound directly to a recorder, or output to a power amplifier and cabinet, disabling the cabinet model, and be recorded with microphones.
Now we get into opinion, which varies a lot, so these are mine, although I try to give room to differing opinions. Most engineers, in a perfect world, would prefer to use the right guitar amplifier with the right sound, in a good room, with a mic in front of it. Open backed cabs are often recorded with 2 mics, one in front, and one in back. Often, a more sensitive mic, called an ambient or "room" mic is used, backed off a bit, to capture the reflections of the sound off the walls of a hopefully good room. The classic technique is to put a well made cheap dynamic mic right up against the speaker grill, just off center, and move it around until you get the sound you want, looking for the so-called "sweet spot". Shure SM57, an $80 mic, is a favorite of many people for this, but people will recommend many, many, other mics for this.
Guitar is not often recorded DI, as only the better studios have a selection of amps for re-amping, and often the guitarist can't play properly while listening to a "dry" track. For this reason, DI recording is often done from the direct line out of a guitar amp, so the guitarist can hear the sound he expects to hear from the mic on the amp in his headphones, but the engineer gets the unprocessed track he wants to do whatever he wants to with it.
Regarding modelers, the jury is still out, but many people love them, and many people hate them. Regarding guitar amps, there are "clean" sounds with less distortion, and "dirty" sounds, where selective distortion is used on purpose as an effect. For many years in studios, Fender and Vox amps were the standard for clean sounds, and Marshall was the standard for dirty sounds, and many of these amps are still used and highly prized. Mesa became more commonly used for distortion in the 80's, and there are many other offerings from Soldano, Line 6, Crate, Ampeg, Peavey, and others. Personally, when it comes to amps, I'd rather have a Vox and a Marshall, but that's just me.
The good news is that recording studios usually use smaller amps, intended for practice or small gigs, because huge sound is not needed or useful for recording. Usually 30 watts is plenty, and many big time rock albums have been recorded with wussy little amps, such as a Fender Princeton. Personally, I use a modeler, a POD Pro, run into a Carver power amp, then to a Marshall cabinet, then mic'd. I also use a Fender Princeton, and believe it or not, a Crate MXR15 (the only Crate amp I've ever heard that did not sound like shit).
One of the problems with distortion from combo amps (amp and speaker in the same enclosure, rather than separate), is that to get really good distortion, the amp has to be cranked way up, which can get too loud in an enclosed space. The bigger studios put the amp and mic in another room. For small studios, the "monster-in-a-box" can be the solution. The amp is placed, with a mic, in a plywood box lined with carpet, and bolted shut, so it doesn't annoy the neighbors or blow your head off.
Aside from the amp lines above, the most popular modelers appear to be POD Pro XT (I find the cheaper floor model too noisy for recording), Johnson J-Station, and the Behringer V-AMP-2, which also comes in a cheap floor version and a rack mounted unit. Sorry for the long post, but this is recording electric guitar 101. I hope it helps.
As suggested above, the short answer is let the guitarist bring whatever amp he likes, stick an SM57 in front of it in a well treated room, find the sweet spot, and record it.-Richie
wheelema
Boner-obo
Richard,
Actually, I know a little bit less than diddly about this. This is for my daughter's friend who inherited her Mom's electric (no idea what type it is), and my daughter who wants to practice alongside of her. Taking this in mind, and I am a rank newbie at this, what guitar would you suggest I get for my girl? They like soft rock, country, and gospel music, so I doubt if I will see any interest in creating metal or hip hop sounds.
I saw a schematic showing the guitar going directly into a Digi002, so I was a little confused. Thanks for the help!
Actually, I know a little bit less than diddly about this. This is for my daughter's friend who inherited her Mom's electric (no idea what type it is), and my daughter who wants to practice alongside of her. Taking this in mind, and I am a rank newbie at this, what guitar would you suggest I get for my girl? They like soft rock, country, and gospel music, so I doubt if I will see any interest in creating metal or hip hop sounds.
I saw a schematic showing the guitar going directly into a Digi002, so I was a little confused. Thanks for the help!
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Yo Wheelma! There are as many opinions on cheap electrics as there are on amps and recording techniques. Traditionally, there are 2 major schools of design on electric guitars. The double coil pickup, also known as the humbucker, traditionally used on Gibsons, and the single coil pickup, traditionally used on Fenders. Guitars now may use either or both, and some guitars can switch back and forth at the touch of a button, using coil taps.
There are some very good cheap guitars out there, but quality control is a major issue. Often to find an electric guitar under $300 that's worth a damn, you have to play 15 or more guitars until you find one with no major flaws. So the rule of thumb is- find someone you can trust who really knows guitars, and play a whole bunch of cheap guitars until you find one that's near perfect. Don't go by brand or model, because they will vary widely, and *never* buy a guitar in the box you haven't played, or on line.
That being said, where are you located? If you don't have a friend who knows what he's doing, maybe someone on this board who does would be willing to take a trip to the guitar store with you and play some guitars for you.. As far as amps go, most cheap ones really are bad. Consider a 30 watt Fender or Vox (make sure it has reverb), and expect the entry price on an amp to be at least $300 for a good one. If you're lucky, and you have some one who knows guitars, you can probably find a usable solid body guitar around $200, but remember, you do tend to get what you pay for, and $600-$800 would be a much better budget if you're looking for a guitar that will stick around for a few years.
Guitars are made of wood by humans, and you just can't buy based on make and model, but on the merits of the specific instrument. Good luck.-Richie
There are some very good cheap guitars out there, but quality control is a major issue. Often to find an electric guitar under $300 that's worth a damn, you have to play 15 or more guitars until you find one with no major flaws. So the rule of thumb is- find someone you can trust who really knows guitars, and play a whole bunch of cheap guitars until you find one that's near perfect. Don't go by brand or model, because they will vary widely, and *never* buy a guitar in the box you haven't played, or on line.
That being said, where are you located? If you don't have a friend who knows what he's doing, maybe someone on this board who does would be willing to take a trip to the guitar store with you and play some guitars for you.. As far as amps go, most cheap ones really are bad. Consider a 30 watt Fender or Vox (make sure it has reverb), and expect the entry price on an amp to be at least $300 for a good one. If you're lucky, and you have some one who knows guitars, you can probably find a usable solid body guitar around $200, but remember, you do tend to get what you pay for, and $600-$800 would be a much better budget if you're looking for a guitar that will stick around for a few years.
Guitars are made of wood by humans, and you just can't buy based on make and model, but on the merits of the specific instrument. Good luck.-Richie
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Yo Wheelma! There are as many opinions on cheap electrics as there are on amps and recording techniques. Traditionally, there are 2 major schools of design on electric guitars. The double coil pickup, also known as the humbucker, traditionally used on Gibsons, and the single coil pickup, traditionally used on Fenders. Guitars now may use either or both, and some guitars can switch back and forth at the touch of a button, using coil taps.
There are some very good cheap guitars out there, but quality control is a major issue. Often to find an electric guitar under $300 that's worth a damn, you have to play 15 or more guitars until you find one with no major flaws. So the rule of thumb is- find someone you can trust who really knows guitars, and play a whole bunch of cheap guitars until you find one that's near perfect. Don't go by brand or model, because they will vary widely, and *never* buy a guitar in the box you haven't played, or on line.
That being said, where are you located? If you don't have a friend who knows what he's doing, maybe someone on this board who does would be willing to take a trip to the guitar store with you and play some guitars for you.. As far as amps go, most cheap ones really are bad. Consider a 30 watt Fender or Vox (make sure it has reverb), and expect the entry price on an amp to be at least $300 for a good one. If you're lucky, and you have some one who knows guitars, you can probably find a usable solid body guitar around $200, but remember, you do tend to get what you pay for, and $600-$800 would be a much better budget if you're looking for a guitar that will stick around for a few years.
Guitars are made of wood by humans, and you just can't buy based on make and model, but on the merits of the specific instrument. Good luck.-Richie
There are some very good cheap guitars out there, but quality control is a major issue. Often to find an electric guitar under $300 that's worth a damn, you have to play 15 or more guitars until you find one with no major flaws. So the rule of thumb is- find someone you can trust who really knows guitars, and play a whole bunch of cheap guitars until you find one that's near perfect. Don't go by brand or model, because they will vary widely, and *never* buy a guitar in the box you haven't played, or on line.
That being said, where are you located? If you don't have a friend who knows what he's doing, maybe someone on this board who does would be willing to take a trip to the guitar store with you and play some guitars for you.. As far as amps go, most cheap ones really are bad. Consider a 30 watt Fender or Vox (make sure it has reverb), and expect the entry price on an amp to be at least $300 for a good one. If you're lucky, and you have some one who knows guitars, you can probably find a usable solid body guitar around $200, but remember, you do tend to get what you pay for, and $600-$800 would be a much better budget if you're looking for a guitar that will stick around for a few years.
Guitars are made of wood by humans, and you just can't buy based on make and model, but on the merits of the specific instrument. Good luck.-Richie
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Wheelema- I just checked your member profile, and I see you are in Southern California. Can you narrow that down a bit? I have a partner. Maureen Fleming, in San Diego, who might be able to help you out. I'm in Massachusetts, myself, so I doubt I'm of much use to you. I know we don't generally use addresses on line, but can you give me a city? Southern California is a big place. I bet somebody will help you out here.-Richie
wheelema
Boner-obo
Richard,
The name is actually Mark and I am based in Riverside. There is a Guitar Center in San Berdoo, relatively close (if it hasn't burned down with the rest of San Bernardino), and I have two friends, one a picker, the other a strummer, who perhaps I can con into going to a store with me. Perhaps your friend in SandDog can refer me to a great store.
Thanks!
The name is actually Mark and I am based in Riverside. There is a Guitar Center in San Berdoo, relatively close (if it hasn't burned down with the rest of San Bernardino), and I have two friends, one a picker, the other a strummer, who perhaps I can con into going to a store with me. Perhaps your friend in SandDog can refer me to a great store.
Thanks!
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Guitar Center is a great place to start, because they have huge industry and buying power. Prices are definitely negotiable, so you need to take your haggle hat. Just take somebody who knows a good electric guitar when they play one, and ignore the salesman. Play lots of guitars until you find one with a straight neck, good intomation, and no buzzes that's in your budget. Then grind their balls regarding the case- get a good one, not a gig bag. If possible, take the daughter, so you don't buy one she thinks is dorky looking. But- ignore color, style, brand, etc.- Just get the guitar that plays and sounds good.-Richie
P.S.- This is just my experience- I've played OK guitars made in the USA, Mexico,Indonesia, Korea, and Japan, but I've never played a Chinese guitar that did not suck.-Richie
P.S.- This is just my experience- I've played OK guitars made in the USA, Mexico,Indonesia, Korea, and Japan, but I've never played a Chinese guitar that did not suck.-Richie
wheelema
Boner-obo
Richie,
Thanks for all the great advice. Hope she loves it!
Thanks for all the great advice. Hope she loves it!
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
This is my request, in exchange for the trouble people, including myself, take to help people. After the deed is done, come back, tell us what you selected, what it cost, whether she liked it, what factors affected your decision, and whether any of the advice here was useful to you, and if so why. The one thing I hate is typing a magnum opus to help some beginner, and then never knowing if the advice was useful or not. Best of luck.-Richie
wheelema
Boner-obo
Richie,
If I forget, please forgive me. I am a system builder (computer consultant) and my personal pet peeve is trying to undo the bad advice that someone else who represented themselves as an expert has given a client. I try to contribute to the board by helping people put together their computers. Just over the last several days there was someone telling a newbie that he/she needed dual XEON processors and redundant power supplies for the computer that they wanted to build up. Undoing bad advice is ten times harder than providing good advice, and I certainly appreciate the time you have devoted.
God bless
If I forget, please forgive me. I am a system builder (computer consultant) and my personal pet peeve is trying to undo the bad advice that someone else who represented themselves as an expert has given a client. I try to contribute to the board by helping people put together their computers. Just over the last several days there was someone telling a newbie that he/she needed dual XEON processors and redundant power supplies for the computer that they wanted to build up. Undoing bad advice is ten times harder than providing good advice, and I certainly appreciate the time you have devoted.
God bless