Effect of CD burners on sound?

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dobro

dobro

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In some thread somewhere recently, I don't recall which, someone said something about the software that different CD burners use having an effect on the sound of your mixdown.

Is this true? I don't see how it can be. A wav file's a wav file, right? The software just arranges mixdown files for the burn.
 
Dobro - The files that are burned to audio CD's are not .wav files. Most commonly the source will be .wav files (although some software will except other formats, e.g. .mp3), but they are converted to red book audio format prior to burning to CD.

Therefore, the burning software not only arranges the files in the order you choose, but it also handl;es the file conversions.

Whether or not that has an effect on the sound, I don't know and will leave for those smarter than I to comment on. However, both .wav files and red book audio are full digital representation of the sound (at least within the limits of 16 bits and 44.1 sample rates), therefore my guess is that the sound quality is unaffected through the coversion process. However, errors generated during the actual CD burning process might have some effect on sound quality.

All I know is my ears can't tell any difference
 
Dachay - thanks for explaining the difference between wav files and red book audio. I use Cool Edit Pro though, and it does the conversion from wav to CD-ready format. I don't think Adaptec does anything but arrange the tracks in the order I want them burnt. And then my Hewlett-Packard burner does an indifferent job of burning them.
 
Dobro-

Adaptec (EZ Cd Creator) does, in fact, covert the .wav files. It does it on-the-fly during the burning process, so you don't actually see the conversion taking place.

If you just burn .wav files directly to a CD, the CD won't play in a standard CD player. They have to be converted to be playable in a CD player.

If you take a commercial CD and try to read it with Windows Explorer, you will see that the files (actually tracks) are not .wav files. They usually with show up as .cda files (e.g., track1.cda). These are not truly file formats, but rather just how the computer reads audio CD's.

Bottom line is that you really shouldn't lose any quality during this conversion - unless you are converting from 24 bit .wav files. Audio CD's can only be written at 16 bits. If you convert from 24 bit .wav's you will lose quality due to the step-down to 16 bits, but there is nothing you can do about that. The final result, of course, will still be CD-quality - it just won't be as good as 24 bit .wav's. Same would be true if your sample rate is any higher than 44.1.
 
Well, this has been an education...

I would love to know what kind of conversion goes on in Adaptec. I dither down to 16-bit in Cool Edit, so it's not dithering. Or am I wrong for the third time? :D
 
Dobro - you are correct to dither to 16-bits in Cool Edit rather than let Adaptec convert. In fact, I'm not certain that Adaptec can even handle 24-bit wave files. I'll have to check that out tonight.

In any event, if you are recording at 24-bits the files have to get to 16-bits before they can be burned to CD. Dithering in a professional audio program (Cool Edit) is much better than allowing a general purpose program (EZ CD Creator) to do the bit conversion (again assuming EZ CD can even do that).

If the .wav files that you are using in Adaptec are already 16-bit and 44.1 sample rate (as you stated they are) then the only conversion Adaptec would be doing is to convert from a .wav format to red book audio format.
 
CD recording and sound . .

It's interesting . . I find my material tends to sound different
(slightly) when burnt onto CD . Although there are so many
factors that would give a perceived change . .

I tend to play the CD's on a different machine for a start..
(not the one in the PC)
Different inter-connects.
Different amplifier.
Different loudspeakers.
Different everything . .

I have also noticed that different CDR's sound different too!!
I prefer to use Fuji-Film as I tend to think these generally
give a smoother sound.. You may think I'm nuts but it's true . .

Then I suppose there's the 'electronic conversion' process . .
I have noticed that different 'CD ripping' software gives
different results too . .

I suppose it all boils down to the scenario why 2 amplifiers
with ruler flat frequency response can sound different . .

And if I say 'different' one more time I'll scream!

Be good, have fun and bye for now . .
 
I'm quoting others not myself.

A top engineer who runs one of the best recording schools and mastering house told me he hears a difference between the X1 and the rest. True or false I never checked it out.

Also here is a interesting posted by a colleague.
________________________________________

Can Compact Discs contain jitter?
When I started in this business, I was skeptical that there could be sonic differences between CDs that demonstrably contained the same data. But over time, I have learned to hear the subtle (but important) sonic differences between jittery (and less jittery) CDs. What started me on this quest was that CD pressings often sounded deteriorated (soundstage width, depth, resolution, purity of tone, other symptoms) compared to the CDR master from which they were made. Clients were coming to me, musicians with systems ranging from $1000 to $50,000, complaining about sonic differences that by traditional scientific theory should not exist. But the closer you look at the phenomenon of jitter, the more you realize that even minute amounts of jitter are audible, even through the FIFO (First in, First Out) buffer built into every CD player.

CDRs recorded on different types of machines sound different to my ears. An AES-EBU (stand-alone) CD recorder produces inferior-sounding CDs compared to a SCSI-based (computer) CD recorder. This is understandable when you realize that a SCSI-based recorder uses a crystal oscillator master clock. Whenever its buffer gets low, this type of recorder requests data on the SCSI buss from the source computer and thus is not dependent on the stability of the computer's clock. In contrast, a stand-alone CD recorder works exactly like a DAT machine; it slaves its master clock to the jittery incoming clock imbedded in the AES/EBU signal. No matter how effective the recorder's PLL at removing incoming jitter, it can never be as effective as a well-designed crystal clock.

I've also observed that a 4X-speed SCSI-based CDR copy sounds inferior to a double-speed copy and yet again inferior to a 1X speed copy.

Does a CD copy made from a jittery source sound inferior to one made from a clean source? I don't think so; I think the quality of the copy is solely dependent on clocking and mechanics involved during the transfer. Further research should be done on this question.

David Smith (of Sony Music) was the first to point out to me that power supply design is very important to jitter in a CD player, a CD recorder, or a glass mastering machine. Although the FIFO is supposed to eliminate all the jitter coming in, it doesn't seem to be doing an adequate job. One theory put forth by David is that the crystal oscillator at the output of the FIFO is powered by the same power supply that powers the input of the FIFO. Thus, the variations in loading at the input to the FIFO are microcosmically transmitted to the output of the FIFO through the power supply. Considering the minute amounts of jitter that are detectable by the ear, it is very difficult to design a power supply/grounding system that effectively blocks jitter from critical components. Crystal oscillators and phase locked loops should be powered from independent supplies, perhaps even battery supplies. A lot of research is left to be done; one of the difficulties is finding measurement instruments capable of quantifying very low amounts of jitter. Until we are able to correlate jitter measurements against audibility, the ear remains the final judge. Yet another obstacle to good "anti-jitter" engineering design is engineers who don't (or won't) listen. The proof is there before your ears!

David Smith also discovered that inserting a reclocking device during glass mastering definitely improves the sound of the CD pressing. Correlary question: If you use a good reclocking device on the final transfer to Glass Master, does this cancel out any jitter of previous source or source(s) that were used in the pre-production of the 1630? Answer: We're not sure yet!

Listening tests: I have participated in a number of blind (and double-blind) listening tests that clearly indicate that a CD which is pressed from a "jittery" source sounds worse than one made from a less jittery source? In one test, a CD plant pressed a number of test CDs, simply marked "A" or "B". No one outside of the plant knew which was "A" and which "B". All listeners preferred the pressing marked "A", as closer to the master, and sonically superior to "B". Not to prolong the suspense, disc "A" was glass mastered from PCM-1630, disc "B" from a CDR.

Attention CD Plants---a New Solution to the Jitter Problem from Sony: In response to pressure from its musical clients, and recognizing that jitter really is a problem, Sony Corporation has decided to improve on the quality of glass mastering. The result is a new system called (appropriately) The Ultimate Cutter. The system can be retrofitted to any CD plant's Glass Mastering system for approximately $100,000. The Ultimate Cutter contains 2 gigabytes of flash RAM, and a very stable clock. It is designed to eliminate the multiple interfering clocks and mechanical irregularities of traditional systems using 1630, Exabyte, or CD ROM sources. First the data is transferred to the cutter's RAM from the CD Master; then all interfering sources may be shut down, and a glass master cut with the stable clock directly from RAM. This system is currently under test, and I look forward to hearing the sonic results.
Can Jitter in a Chain be Erased or Reduced?
The answer, thankfully, is "yes". Several of the advanced D to A converters now available to consumers contain jitter reduction circuits. Some of them use a frequency-controlled crystal oscillator to average the moment to moment variations in the source. In essence, the clock driving the D/A becomes a stable crystal, immune to the pico- or nano-second time-base variations of jittery sources. This is especially important to professionals, who have to evaluate the digital audio during recording, perhaps at the end of a chain of several Phase Locked Loops. Someday all D to A converters will incorporate very effective jitter-reduction circuits.
Good Jitter vs. Bad Jitter
The amount of jitter is defined by how far the time is drifting. Original estimates of acceptable jitter in A/D and D/A converters were around 100 to 200 picoseconds (pS). However, research into oversampling converters revealed that jitter below 10 pS is highly desirable. For D/A converters, the amount of jitter is actually less important than the type of jitter, for some types of jitter are audibly more benign than others (I repeat: jitter does not affect D-D dubs, it only affects the D to A converter in the listening chain).

There are three different "types" of jitter:
1. The variations in the time base which are defined as jitter are regular and periodic (possibly sinusoidal)
2. The variations are random (incoherent, white noise)
3. The variations are related to the digital audio signal
Jitter can also be a combination of the above three.

Periodic fluctuations in the time base (#1 above) can cause spurious tones to appear at low levels, blocking our ability to hear critical ambient decay and thus truncating the dynamic range of the reproduction. Often this type of jitter is caused by clock leakage. It is analogous to scrape flutter in analog recorders.

On the other hand, Gaussian, or random jitter (#2 above, usually caused by a well-behaved Phase Locked Loop wandering randomly around the nominal clock frequency) is the least audible type. In addition to adding some additional noise at high frequencies, gaussian jitter adds a small perfume of hiss at the lowest levels, which may or may not be audible, and may or may not mask low level musical material. Sometimes, this type of jitter puts a "veil" on the sound. This veiling is not permanent (unlike the effects of dither, which are generally permanent), and will go away with a proper reclocking circuit into the D/A converter.

Finally, timing variations related to the digital audio signal (#3 above) add a kind of intermodulation distortion that can sound quite ugly.
 
And I thought jitter just came from drinking too much coffee :)


BTW, Dobro, I checked whether EZ CD Creator would handle 24 bit .wav files, and the answer is no. At least not Version 4.02, which is the version I have. Therefore, you have to (as you are already doing apparently) drop them to 16-bit before using EZ CD to burn them to CD.
 
Thats a very good article Shailat.
It amazes me that something so obvious keeps escaping the attention of so many.
There are NO CD burners with accurate clocks, just like there are NO DAW's or digital consoles with accurate clocks. An accurate clock needs its own dedicated power supply, and that's just for starters. Obviously a stand-alone professional audio CD burner will have lower jitter than a PC based burner.
But .... why don't manufacturers make a burner capable of locking to an external clock?
I am currently talking to 2 manufacturers about such a piece of equipment. Its really frustrating if you have a recording studio where all digital equipment is synchronised accurately through one very expensive sync generator, in order to produce the highest quality sound possible, with the lowest possible amount of digital artifacts like jitter, only to incur jitter at the final stage of the mastering process.
 
That bit about burning speed affecting the sound didn't come from Stephen Paul, did it? :D
 
Check out this good article that I originally got from Dolemite who posted it on this thread.

I think Shailat's excerpt above can also be found in the article on jitter on at http://www.digido.com/. Just to clarify something, though. When they say "standalone" CD recorder they really are talking about a recorder with an AES/EBU or S/PDIF interface. The problem of jitter is in those interfaces. When the "standalone" recorder has a reliable interface, such as SCSI or IDE, then there is no problem.

Assuming you have a SCSI or IDE CD burner, the CD burner will normally not affect the sound at all. In order to affect the sound, it would have to write data inaccurately to the CD. If it did this, then you could not save executable programs to the CD either. If even one bit is wrong in a program, it can crash. Yes, there are errors on the CD, but they are normally corrected.
 
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The AES connection can be improved quire a bit by using the best possible cable available, like for instance Gepco's new 5596 series of 110-ohm AES/EBU digital audio cable, keeping it as short as possible.
I use ADAT optical at 2' length, which measured better than the other options (and worse at longer distances).
 
dobro said:
That bit about burning speed affecting the sound didn't come from Stephen Paul, did it? :D

No actully this quote came from a friend who runs a studio-mastering house called Yehuda Zaytun.
He also runs one of the top recording schools here and this guy has golden ears.

He told me this a long time ago before that SP thread but I never paid to much attention. I think I'm going to start to check it out myself
 
Shailat - thanks for the response (and for the article - it's useful!).

Sjoko - yeah, I think you're right about the lack of understanding about the importance of clock in a recording system. I might be talking out my arse here, but I think it's only been in the last year or so that many people on hr.com have learned about the importance of good converters. Similarly, it's only been very recently that people have been paying attention to the importance of clock - I'm glad you've been making noise about it.
 
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