ecm8000 too sensitive for live recording

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gitrokr

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band was gonna do a recording..bla bla bla, moneys tight...we were going to do it live because our songs are in different times and itll be impossible to do it track by track...so we were gonna mic both guitars, the bass, and drums....the questions is....would ecm8000s be too sensitive for this kind of recording? or what would you recommend? how much bleed will be going into the drums?
 
ECM's are Omni's so are going to pickup the sound of the whole room rather than just the direction you point them.

In relation to your question, this means the bleed will probably be quite large (as in a lot). If you are definatly going to do a live recording cardoid mics will minimise bleed, like the MXL SD condensors.

If both your guitarists used POD's DI'd into the board and you were all wearing headphones, this would also minimise bleed. For best results you are better off recording vocals seperately anyway.

Apart from that,, I would strongly recomend doing some sort of live 'scratch' track, then seperately tracking over it.

Neil
 
I use the ECM8000 as overheads. But this means you cannot put anything else in the room but drums, or it will be on those tracks too.

I've also done liverecordings with them, just used them as a stereopair in the room the concerts in, and capture the sound as it is in the room. No mixing afterwards, that is. Got some good results with it...
 
Agreed, ecms will pick up everything, not only that but you will get a mono recording, even if you used two of them.

If you are just going to record as if it is a live performance (no individual tracking) then what I would recommend on a budget is a pair of cardoids set up in an XY or ORTF stereo pair. If you do not know those terms a search will give you all the details.
 
Innovations said:
Agreed, ecms will pick up everything, not only that but you will get a mono recording, even if you used two of them.

That's not quite true. He could make a Jecklin Disc, or use them as an A/B pair.
 
Innovations said:
not only that but you will get a mono recording, even if you used two of them.

:confused: Hmmm . . . :confused:


I suppose if you panned them both center.
 
chessrock said:
:confused: Hmmm . . . :confused:


I suppose if you panned them both center.
Yes, I was wrong there, more accurately I should have said that there would be little stereo differentiation compared to a stereo pair of cardoids, particularly if the two omnis were in a small room.
 
Innovations said:
Yes, I was wrong there, more accurately I should have said that there would be little stereo differentiation compared to a stereo pair of cardoids, particularly if the two omnis were in a small room.


there would be little stereo differentiation if you used them in a coincident pair. In a spaced pair there will be plenty of differentiation. i use a spaced pair of omnis on a grand piano all the time, and usually i actually have to pan them a bit towards center or the piano will sound TOO wide. for me, they work better than cardioids because the absence of proximity effect means i don't have to worry about the strings closest to the mics "sticking out".
 
the single most important step in setting up piano mics is probably going to be listening in mono. Getting rid of as much of the phase problems and comb filtering as possible by moving the mics around a few inches will really pay dividends, even when you go back to listening in stereo.

part of positioning will be determined by whatkind of sound you are going for, and what other instruments, if any, are in the room. if you need isolation, you might have to mic fairly closely with sound blankets covering the partially raised lid.

in general though, classical music typically is mic'ed from farther away - so you get a mellower tone with more room sound. this may not be a good thing if you hate the sound of the room. rock piano is usually recorded with close mics so you get a brighter more piercing sound, relying on artificial ambience if necessary.

Typically i end up somewhere in the middle. anywhere from one to two feet off the strings. I usually have one mic just above the strings about an octave or two from the top note (panned right) while the left mic is down closer to the toe of the piano, somewhere in the area of where the bass strings and midrange strings cross eachother.

then, spend a fair amount of time recording some snippets and listening back- seeing ifgood or bad things happen when youvmove the mics a few inches in various directions.

In the end, each grand may require a different scheme, and the room acoustics will also heavily influence your ultimate mic postions. also- don't be afraid to try out using just one mic. Mono piano recordings eliminate phase problems by definition, and can sound surprisingly good!
 
littledog said:
there would be little stereo differentiation if you used them in a coincident pair. In a spaced pair there will be plenty of differentiation. i use a spaced pair of omnis on a grand piano all the time, and usually i actually have to pan them a bit towards center or the piano will sound TOO wide. for me, they work better than cardioids because the absence of proximity effect means i don't have to worry about the strings closest to the mics "sticking out".
Yes, for micing a piano in a room meant to have a piano in it omnis would be great, for micing a rock band in a room that is definitly not concertworthy using a bunch of omnis is going to get you a mess.
 
Innovations said:
Yes, for micing a piano in a room meant to have a piano in it omnis would be great, for micing a rock band in a room that is definitly not concertworthy using a bunch of omnis is going to get you a mess.


yes and no....

one of the myths about omni mics is you need a good sounding room. no one would argue the value of a good sounding room, but the fact that omnis don't have a proximity effect allows you to mic much closer to the source than you would be able to with a directional mic.

this lets you get a really high ratio of direct sound vs. room sound even though the pattern is omnidirectional. This means that omnis might still be a great choice even in a gawd-awful sounding room.

so don't discard the omni possibility even if you are embarassed about your room. a little omni experimentation may give some surprising results!

another point that I meant to make earlier was about using in-line pads. they are fairly inexpensive little metal cylinders that you simply plug into either end of your mic cable that drop the mic output by 20 db (typically). this would solve the question originally posed about what to do when mic's without built-in pads are too hot.
 
littledog said:
yes and no....

one of the myths about omni mics is you need a good sounding room. no one would argue the value of a good sounding room, but the fact that omnis don't have a proximity effect allows you to mic much closer to the source than you would be able to with a directional mic.

this lets you get a really high ratio of direct sound vs. room sound even though the pattern is omnidirectional. This means that omnis might still be a great choice even in a gawd-awful sounding room.

I found this to be true micing near the sound hole (6" or so) of acoustic guitars.
 
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