Dumb stereo recording question

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nate_dennis

nate_dennis

Well-known member
This seems so logical to me, I just want to make sure I understand correctly.

If one were to record a source such as a string quartet with the following set up: Two overheads (SDCs) and one mic centered on the group lower, about head level-ish. After panning the overheads to left and right, would putting the same about of the center mic in both channels effectively put that mic in the center?

Feels like a dumb question, but I'd like to make sure I understand.

Also, does that sound like a feasible way to record a string quartet?
 
You know it all depends on what the instruments are. What cha got?







:cool:
 
The pan control puts a track in both channels when it is centered.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
The pan control puts a track in both channels when it is centered.
Click to expand...

You know. . . . I don't know how I made it so damned complicated. (I haven't actually recorded in a while, so I think maybe it was just a dumb oversight.) But now that you say that it's like "DUH!!!"


As far as what I got . . . nothing at the moment. I want to write string parts for some of my songs. I'm not going to try for a fully orchestra. So I thought just a quartet: two violins, a viola, and a cello.
 
Sorry to not answer your question, but...

I wouldn't use "over heads" to record a string quartet anyway. Use a proper stereo technique such as an XY pair, or an ORTF or NOS pair etc. I probably wouldn't even use the final mic.
 
pezking said:
Sorry to not answer your question, but...

I wouldn't use "over heads" to record a string quartet anyway. Use a proper stereo technique such as an XY pair, or an ORTF or NOS pair etc. I probably wouldn't even use the final mic.
Click to expand...

+1. I'd go with a coincident pair, probably X/Y or mid/side.
 
Also not mentioned - are you recording each mic into a separate track? If so, then play with the positioning before recording tracks, then play with the panning during mix down. If you are mixing into a stereo (2 tracks) recording, then like said above, you will be putting a mono track onto both left and right. Note you may have phase issues unless you space 3 mics correctly.
 
pezking said:
Sorry to not answer your question, but...

I wouldn't use "over heads" to record a string quartet anyway. Use a proper stereo technique such as an XY pair, or an ORTF or NOS pair etc. I probably wouldn't even use the final mic.
Click to expand...
When I said overhead I just meant a stereo pair of mics. I assumed that the most effective place to position them in order to capture all of the group would be from above. This was one place that MS really seemed appropriate.

bouldersoundguy said:
+1. I'd go with a coincident pair, probably X/Y or mid/side.
Click to expand...
XY also crossed my mind.

mjbphotos said:
Also not mentioned - are you recording each mic into a separate track? If so, then play with the positioning before recording tracks, then play with the panning during mix down. If you are mixing into a stereo (2 tracks) recording, then like said above, you will be putting a mono track onto both left and right. Note you may have phase issues unless you space 3 mics correctly.
Click to expand...
I intend to record it as a stereo recording. Between two and four mics recorded as one stereo image. I would be quite mindful of phase.

diggy_dude said:
From the two wide-panned overheads and one centered mic, I gathered that he's going for a wide image but doesn't want to lose the sense of localization.
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Precisely. I thought that a center mic would play much the same role as having a mic on a snare as well as OH mics. The main sound comes from the OH but the snare mic adds a bit of beef or pressence. So I thought having a positional refference would allow the space to seem more real. Maybe it was a dumb thought. I dunno. I'm just day dreaming right now. (I'm sure it makes me a dork to day dream of how I'll run a session some day....but .....)

So I guess to make up for a lack of recording time I do this in my head all day.

So yeah, I guess, I was thinking the four musicians would sit cemi-circle on the stage with stereo mics above, a center mic in front, and tape rolling (maybe in the pit.) I would get a few good takes of each piece and move on. But .... I dunno. It's all monopoly money right now. Thanks guys. You all rule.
 
nate_dennis said:
Precisely. I thought that a center mic would play much the same role as having a mic on a snare as well as OH mics.... So I thought having a positional refference would allow the space to seem more real. Maybe it was a dumb thought.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it dumb. I'd omit the center mic and place the other two closer to the center, then pan them to the extremes. The center would be strong enough in both channels to give it focus when they converge in the stereo mix.

I don't know about circling the players around the mics. The stereo image is best heard as if from a short distance rather than in the middle of the ensemble. Placing the listener in the middle could be disturbing, as it's not how one expects to hear a group play.
 
diggy_dude said:
I don't know about circling the players around the mics. The stereo image is best heard as if from a short distance rather than in the middle of the ensemble. Placing the listener in the middle could be disturbing, as it's not how one expects to hear a group play.
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Poor communication on my part. I didn't want them circled around the mics. I guess a semi-cirlce with four people doesn't make much sense. It would look something like this:


/ \

*


Where the lines are two performers each and the "*" is the X/Y set up or MS set up or whatever. The angle of the lines would be different but you get the point.
 
If your recording device only has two input channels (or two at the same time,) the center mic will cause you to lose most of your stereo imaging, from my experience. I would either

a) record the three mics to three channels, and pan as needed on remix, or

b) eliminate the center mic if I only had two channels to record to.

But, If I were using something that had 8 input channels (loving my Zoom R16 these days!) I'd record the two condensers to two channels, and close-mic each of the instruments and record that to their own channel, and put a condenser out in front, about 10 feet from the quartet. That would leave you with one more channel, which I would use for a room mic. Then I'd mix it down to two tracks as I liked. Lots more time, though...
 
Yeah, I see the benifits of your method. I guess I'm just a bit more old school in my approach. I prefer (where possible) to record down to two tracks. So when I get up and going again, most of my drums will be recorded straight down to two, the strings will go to two, etc. I'm not opposed to more mics, I just like making decisions early and committing. Spending the time to get it right at the source and getting it done. So I'll probably end up doing some sort of stereo set up and maybe a room mic but I don't know. Thanks for all the input.
 
Well Nate you see there has been a great debate over microphone placement and such but, what microphones will you have at your disposal?

And on top of that what kind of room(s) will you be looking at to record the strings?

For these will be consideration to mull over while your thinking about this project.
And while your talking about it send some of that monopoly money my way! :D









:cool:
 
By that time I'll probably have a few ribbons (probably cascade fatheads) a few SDCs (from naiant) an LDC, and a dynamic or two. My inital that was the SDCs but Ribbons might make it sound real cool too.

I think (if I have my way) I'll be recording in a theater with the performers on stage. I'll have headphones on with the rhythm for the song/s playing and cunducting them. So, yeah.



oh, and, ....
Here's $2.2million in monopoly money. Spend it well.
 
nate_dennis said:
By that time I'll probably have a few ribbons (probably cascade fatheads) a few SDCs (from naiant) an LDC, and a dynamic or two. My inital that was the SDCs but Ribbons might make it sound real cool too.

I think (if I have my way) I'll be recording in a theater with the performers on stage. I'll have headphones on with the rhythm for the song/s playing and cunducting them. So, yeah.



oh, and, ....
Here's $2.2million in monopoly money. Spend it well.
Click to expand...




Very cool Nate. A theater with no one in it can be a nightmare for live sound and recording. Try maybe on stage with the main drape closed?


Oh yeah and I need a get out of jail free card as well. :D








:cool:
 
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moresound said:
I theater with no one in it can be a nightmare for live sound and recording. Try maybe on stage with the main drape closed?
Click to expand...

Why is that? Just out of curiosity. But yeah, we could be back into the stage (near the rounded wall) and have the curtain closed, I don't see why we couldn't. I figured having all that space would be nice. (No argument, just curious.)
 
Yo Nate! A string quartet is a challenge, because it tempts you to spot mic everything and start isolating them w/ Jecklin discs, etc. Better yet, in different rooms. OK, you fought off the urge- You want an honest stereo recording, but you're not concerned that you have 3 mics and 2 ears? I wouldn't be, but I am rarely trying to make an honest stereo recording. I'm trying to make a good one. I struggle to remember that a stereo image is *just a model* of what you would have heard if you had been in the room at the time.

Stereo recording makes the room a big factor. Just accept that stereo recording is like amp modeling-it's not real, except maybe with a really good binaural setup. The major key is finding the sweet spot to capture said quartet. Sure, it might be "overhead", *or almost anywhere in the room*, depending on the room/hall. Find the sweet spot where the instuments balance pleasingly. That's how you compensate a little for the strength and weaknesses of the players, and the instruments. Then accept that models were made to be, well, modified. So you take a good MS recording and start playing around with the width of the stereo picture. That third mic you have down there? Think I'll move the cello to the left, because I always thought she should have sat...there!

All I'm sayin' is- don't be concerned with capturing the mythical "accurate" stereo picture. Record with as many mics as you like, and build *your* stereo picture at mixdown. Didn't like the transducer on the viola? It's *gone*.


The stereo recording tech envelope, of course, can be expanded to create M.C. Escher-esque sounds, that can't exist in a real open space. It'll drive classically trained ears nuts, especially in headphones. I believe in kinder and gentler stereo recording. It's easier on the ears, and the brain they're connected to.

For larger ensembles, I mostly use NOS, but a quartet is one of those "in-between" things. Not small, like a single instrument, but not big, like a choir. I think of a string quartet kind of like a human grand piano. From high to fairly low frequencies, even without a double bass, spread out over several feet. I think that if you record a quartet as you would a grand piano, you'll do pretty well, except you can't put boundary mics under their lids.-Richie
 
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