Dual Mic Vocal Tracking...

[kidvybes]

...I've been experimenting with tracking lead vocals on 2 different mics (various combinations of condenser/dynamic/ribbon mics) into individual tracks simultaneously...it allows me to get the best characteristics of 2 different mics blended into one vocal performance...

...I was wondering if anyone else has any particular experience doing similar dual-mic tracking, and if so, what are your recommendations...what mic combinations, mic mounting suggestions (pics if possible), and any other processing tips...

...I've been using individual boom stands to support each mic, but I'm considering purchasing accessories such as linked below to make the setup more concise and flexible...feel free to comment...

http://www.frontendaudio.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2528
http://www.frontendaudio.com/On_Stage_Stands_MY700_Deluxe_Microphone_Stereo_Bar_p/7102.htm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...s&kw=SAST2&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=272480

 

[kojdogg]

i've been doing some stuff like this recently to get acclimated with some new microphones (mostly to a/b them on the same source). other than the obvious need to deal with phasing, i don't have a lot of insights to shed on this other than that i read recently in em that the negative side of figure 8 ribbons tend to be brighter, but have yet to test this out. i'm definitely interested in hearing any other tips and insights too!

 

[scrubs]

I did an RE20 with an NT-1 for a song that had both spoken word and singing and another tune that was just singing. They seemed to complement each other nicely. I had them set up like this:

I manually phase-aligned the tracks in the software.

 

[kidvybes]

I manually phase-aligned the tracks in the software.

...nice...can you be more specific about the "phase alignment" process?...

 

[scrubs]

...nice...can you be more specific about the "phase alignment" process?...

Just zoom in on the waves and line them up, so that when one goes up, the other also goes up. Since they're both recording the same signal, the waves should start and stop at the same time. You just need to make the slight adjustment since the capsules aren't in the exact same place. If the mics are at different distances from the source (mouth), then you might have to flip the polarity of one signal to get them to line up properly. It will look something like this:

 

[Madguitrst]

I like to setup tow condensers and sing through them.
That is, I put the up with a slight spacing and sing right in between them, not hitting the diaphragm of either straight on.

FWIW, I almost never sing striaght on into a diaphragm. I usually like to turn a mic slightly to the side so as to take off any spittiness.

A combination I used to use was a Rode NTK (when I owned it) and a baby Bottle. They compliment each other very well and it worked like a charm.

BTW, if you got the Karma K6, try it with the K6 and a condenser.
The Karma is great for providing the body of the sound and the condenser to add a little sizzle. Oh, the K6 is one of the few mics I can sing striaght into a really dig. In fact, after using them, putting up some condensers sounded like beehives in my ears. These are serious mics folks.

Back to the original topic, the K6 with a brighter condenser sounds good. I mixed it with a 22 251 to try out and it was more than interesting.

 

[kidvybes]

A combination I used to use was a Rode NTK (when I owned it) and a baby Bottle. They compliment each other very well and it worked like a charm.

BTW, if you got the Karma K6, try it with the K6 and a condenser.
The Karma is great for providing the body of the sound and the condenser to add a little sizzle. Oh, the K6 is one of the few mics I can sing striaght into a really dig. In fact, after using them, putting up some condensers sounded like beehives in my ears. These are serious mics folks.

Back to the original topic, the K6 with a brighter condenser sounds good. I mixed it with a 22 251 to try out and it was more than interesting.

..actually, I used the Rode K2 and the Shure SM7B on a baritone vocalist that I'm tracking...like you said, the SM7B gave "body" to the vocal track, while the K2 added "definition" and high-end clarity...
...very interesting results...and having two tracks with different characteristics of the same vocal performance allows me to "dial in" the best of both recordings...
...the K6 will be next up, in combo with one of my condensers as you suggested...and then I might try the K6 in combo with my Heil PR40 (a dynamic, but with a bit more high-end then the SM7B)...should be interesting...

 

[hairylarry]

An LDC and a dynamic

Hi,

Here's an easy two mic vocal technique.

Put a good vocals dynamic on a stand and let the singer stand where she's comfortable. (this could be the singers favorite stage mic)

Then put an LDC above it. A little bit high and pointing down at the singer's forehead/bridge of nose. Keep this mic the same distance from her face as the dynamic. (as described in Harvey's big thread) If she sings really close into her stage mic the LDC can't be at the same distance or she would headbutt the mic. 6-12 inches away is probably right. (and still safe for her forehead and your microphone)

On the singer's headphones try giving her the stage mic. This is what she is used to hearing. Tell her to ignore the LDC and sing into the stage mic.

End results. (hopefully)

One track very much like the singer's live sound.

One track through your favorite (meaning expensive) LDC. The mic placement should reduce nasality and inhale exhale windiness.

Plus the full range available by mixing these tracks.

Substitute other mics at will. An omni and a ribbon. It should still work.

If she's stretching out try giving her the LDC mic in the headphones. She should still sing into the stage mic.

This same technique also works with male vocalists.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[RAK]

I session I worked on employed a Neumann U47 and a Shure Beta 87 on the vocal. We pretty much ended up just going with the Neumann, but it's nice to have options.

 

[kojdogg]

I started recording some basics for one of my buddy's songs yesterday using a Karma K-58 through my CL 7602 (very slight low cut and slight boosts to mids and highs), and K-6 through my m610 (slight low cut and high boost, phase reversed). I did this on his acoustic guitar track (a beautiful sounding Guild), and his lead and two harmony vocal tracks. I found that these all blended together really nicely. I may only use one or the other for the harmonies (probably the ribbon), but I was suprised at how well this worked and how well the sounds complemented each other with very little effort!

 

[kidvybes]

...actually I'm kinda surprised at how little response this thread has gotten...I'm sure that many of the members of this site have at least experimented with this technique or thought about doing so...mic mounting techniques, mic types as well as placement, tracking and mixing tips...that's what I was hoping for...

...maybe I should have titled the thread "Dual Mic (for less than $100) Vocal Tracking For Rap"...that seems to inspire more passionate responses (most of which have little to do with the original question posed)...funny shit actually...

 

[kojdogg]

...actually I'm kinda surprised at how little response this thread has gotten...I'm sure that many of the members of this site have at least experimented with this technique or thought about doing so...mic mounting techniques, mic types as well as placement, tracking and mixing tips...that's what I was hoping for...

it kind of seems like since the eventual goal is a mono track that there wouldn't be as much variation in technique like there would be if you were using two mics to make a stereo track (in terms of debating pattern, set-up etc.), and that because of the wide range in the sonic qualities of different microphones that kind of a pragmatic approach is best. i got really good results just by soloing each mic for placement, distance, etc. so that they sounded good to me individually and then recording the different mics at about the same level. i had the two mics set up like a spaced stereo pair (two different boom stands and shockmounted with some auralex baffling to try to improve isolation), but pretty close together so i only had to use one pop screen. i just made a quick scratch mix because of time constraints and only adjusted the parts (not tracks) relative to each other.

 

[kidvybes]

it kind of seems like since the eventual goal is a mono track that there wouldn't be as much variation in technique like there would be if you were using two mics to make a stereo track (in terms of debating pattern, set-up etc.), and that because of the wide range in the sonic qualities of different microphones that kind of a pragmatic approach is best.

...originally, I was using a technique shown to me by a very established pro engineer, by which he would make a duplicate track of a vocal performance (doubling) and EQ that track to boost the frequencies lacking in the original dry vocal...he would then mix both (mono) tracks into what sounded like a single "bigger", "richer", more "vintage" sounding vocal performance...by playing with the phasing of the 2 tracks, he would create a very slight reverb effect that was more pleasing than the typical software plugin processed reverb...frankly, I've never been as successful using this technique as he was, since my attempts to do similar mixes seemed more obvious (less subtle)...

...that is what motivated me to try using 2 mics (both of which offered different but still flattering characteristics to a particular singer's voice) on separate mono tracks, blending them into what sounds like a single stereo track with the best characteristics of both microphones...the mixing (volume levels, panning, phasing, etc.) of 2 totally dry tracks in this manner seems to offer some very dramatically different results, even without EQ, compression and traditional reverb processing...

 

[kojdogg]

...originally, I was using a technique shown to me by a very established pro engineer, by which he would make a duplicate track of a vocal performance (doubling) and EQ that track to boost the frequencies lacking in the original dry vocal...he would then mix both (mono) tracks into what sounded like a single "bigger", "richer", more "vintage" sounding vocal performance...by playing with the phasing of the 2 tracks, he would create a very slight reverb effect that was more pleasing than the typical software plugin processed reverb...frankly, I've never been as successful using this technique as he was, since my attempts to do similar mixes seemed more obvious (less subtle)...

...that is what motivated me to try using 2 mics (both of which offered different but still flattering characteristics to a particular singer's voice) on separate mono tracks, blending them into what sounds like a single stereo track with the best characteristics of both microphones...the mixing (volume levels, panning, phasing, etc.) of 2 totally dry tracks in this manner seems to offer some very dramatically different results, even without EQ, compression and traditional reverb processing...

that technique sounds awesome man (could the difference be the natural ambience or lack thereof of your respective rooms perhaps?). certainly i fall into the trap of often using plug-ins do what a little bit of adventurous pragmatism might do more effectively and in a more "pure" way. sorry i couldn't offer any useful tips or insights, but thanks for the idea!

 

[scrubs]

You could also try the close & distant mic(s) thing, with gates on the distant mics that only open during louder portions of the vocal to give a natural reverb. Bowie did this on some tracks, iirc.

 

[kidvybes]

that technique sounds awesome man (could the difference be the natural ambience or lack thereof of your respective rooms perhaps?). certainly i fall into the trap of often using plug-ins do what a little bit of adventurous pragmatism might do more effectively and in a more "pure" way. sorry i couldn't offer any useful tips or insights, but thanks for the idea!

...the goal to avoid the typical "plug-in" over-indulgence, and capture a bit more ambient "live" sound is spot-on...definately worth the effort...

You could also try the close & distant mic(s) thing, with gates on the distant mics that only open during louder portions of the vocal to give a natural reverb. Bowie did this on some tracks, iirc.

...yes, I've read about that technique as well...haven't tried it (yet)...but again, I like the "live" aspect as a preference over plug-in processing...

 

[ofajen]

OK, I'm going to give away something really useful for free:

On vocals particularly, though like most everything else, I usually use my 4 Tube Traps around the mike and I usually use either an omni mike or my AT 4050 in omni or figure 8 mode. This is also the main reason I would eventually like to get a good ribbon mike.

When the singer (could be me) moves in relation to the mike and especially if there's a sheet of paper or music stand nearby, you otherwise get all kinds of changing artifacts from relatively coherent reflected sound off of those nearby objects. If you have a quiet tracking room and a decent monitoring environment, you have heard this sound and maybe even if you don't.

The Tube Traps work well to increase the short time delay incoherent reflected sound (too close in time to be distinguished as real reverberance, so you get a sense of acoustic compression and fullness to the direct sound). That incoherent reflected sound tends to sound good and very much the same, even with a bit of movement and it swamps out the coherent reflections I mentioned.

At the same time, you also kill off much of the reflected sound from the rest of the room without putting yourself into a tiny booth with annoying flutter. For this to work, however, you need to use either an omni or figure-8 mike. Cardioid doesn't work, because it cuts out too much of the quick reflected sound coming back.

Now that I'm tracking more with Live 5.2 and not so much on my analog machines, I have more tracks to play with and the luxury to track most everything in stereo, so I've been experimenting with using two omni mikes on instruments and some vocals (Jecklin style or something similar), within the "Quick Sound Field" of the tube traps.

For one voice, it's kinda weird to have the shift in the stereo image on just one voice if you move much relative to the spaced omnis. Actually, using coincident omnis (at right angles) is a good technique in this case, because the stereo effect is very subtle. I think the spaced omnis could be cool if there were a small group singing, or if I keep the mikes in the same orientation and sing several tracks from different spots around the mikes. I've been experimenting with that on instruments but haven't gotten roun'toit on multiple vocals.

My suggestion on using two different mikes mixed to mono is to experiment, but be aware of what happens when you move. The reason is that while yes, you could record two tracks and then shift them to line up a certain note, if you move, the delay time between the mikes will usually shift and won't be corrected by that first adjustment. What a huge pain in the back side it would be to have to correct alignment throughout a track for every random move you make. Of course, it's always possible that those timing differences create a sound you like.

Just my two cents,

Otto

 

[kidvybes]

Of course, it's always possible that those timing differences create a sound you like.
Otto

...that's at the heart of these "trial" recordings...but I'd love to see pics of the tube-traps setup...next time you utilize that technique, please snap a couple of pics and post them...and thanks for the interesting input...

 

[Madguitrst]

would create a very slight reverb effect that was more pleasing than the typical software plugin processed reverb.

This is a great way to record acoustic guitars too.

Use one close mic and one room mic. Use the clos mic for the main sound and bring up the the room mic to add some depth. Of course, you coul;d revers that....or try whatever else.

Even if it's a "mono" source, try panning them slightly differently (there is no roght or wrong, but let's just say 4 and 5 o'clock to start). Don't over do it, just a pinch. In the end it can be just the right thing for giving more depth and realism.

The again, sometimes it's just not the right way to go. Like everything, it all depends.

 

[MadAudio]

You could also try the close & distant mic(s) thing, with gates on the distant mics that only open during louder portions of the vocal to give a natural reverb. Bowie did this on some tracks, iirc.

That would be "Heroes." And I think more than 2 mics were involved.