Drums Suck

[stupidfatnugly]

I've been getting feedback that my drum samples are "unconvincing", "too robotic/ mechanical" needs more "punch", more "swing", etc., etc.

any ideas on how to fix this?

you can listen at: http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly

 

[WhiteStrat]

I've been getting feedback that my drum samples are "unconvincing", "too robotic/ mechanical" needs more "punch", more "swing", etc., etc.

any ideas on how to fix this?

you can listen at: http://myspace.com/stupidfatandugly

Okay, I think the "unconvincing" was me, so I'll bite. First, what are you using for drums?

For me, there are two main issues (and both are big)

1) Does the "hit" itself sound real?

In other words, is it an electronic synthesis of a drum sound, or is it a real recorded drum? Assuming it's a real sample, is it a good one?

2) When the "hits" are combined in your drum track, does it sound real?

Here, real means human. Is there some variety in the velocity, or is every hit exactly the same? Are rolls, fills and accents present but varied? No fills at all--or the same fill over and over again is a dead giveaway. Is the timing too perfect? Or is it "humanized" ever so slightly?

Now assuming those are covered, you have to deal with how the drums sit in the mix. Obviously this deals with volume, EQ & compression. All of these are easier to tweak if you have separate tracks for kick, snare, toms, OHs, etc. More on this later (and hopefully from some others, too). In the meantime, tell us what you're using for drums and how much editing capability you have.

 

[RAMI]

You have to know how a real drummer plays to simulate drum parts. For example, when playing a simple beat, your hi-hat (or ride cymbal) hits can't all be the same volume. The 1,2,3,4 have to be louder than the "and's", if you know what I mean. The 2 and the 4 have to be louder than the 1 and 3, etc... It's not easy to explain because it all comes naturally to a real drummer, but it's very important.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

yes that makes sense. I will make the "and's" quieter. thank you that is a good one

I use REASON drum kits 2.0 samples and I feel that individually they sound great - as far as I know professionally recorded stuff - but I can't put them together right.

does the 2 and 4 have to be louder on just the hihats or for everything?

example: 1) kick and hihat 2) hihat 3) snare and hihat 4) hihat (in this example it seams strange to have 2 and 4 louder if you're talking kick and snare too)

maybe I'm using too much compression but I want the kick and snare to be loud and consistent.

how can I make the fills sound more real? for example: just a snare-only fill

 

[RAMI]

does the 2 and 4 have to be louder on just the hihats or for everything?

maybe I'm using too much compression but I want the kick and snare to be loud and consistent.

how can I make the fills sound more real? for example: just a snare-only fill

When I'm saying the 2 and 4 should be louder, I'm referring to where your snare hits USUALLY are. So, you want the hi-hat to accent that a bit.

The kik and snare should be loud and pretty consistent, but again, no drummer will hit exactly the same way every time, so you can vary that with slight differences in velocity, tone, etc...I don't know how much control you have over all that. You shouldn't need too much compression if you're using samples, though.

As far as making fills sound more real, to me it's all about accents. You can take a simple, constant 16th note roll, and put accents anywhere you want to create more musicality.

 

[MCI2424]

Okay, I think the "unconvincing" was me, so I'll bite. First, what are you using for drums?

For me, there are two main issues (and both are big)

1) Does the "hit" itself sound real?

In other words, is it an electronic synthesis of a drum sound, or is it a real recorded drum? Assuming it's a real sample, is it a good one?

2) When the "hits" are combined in your drum track, does it sound real?

Here, real means human. Is there some variety in the velocity, or is every hit exactly the same? Are rolls, fills and accents present but varied? No fills at all--or the same fill over and over again is a dead giveaway. Is the timing too perfect? Or is it "humanized" ever so slightly?

Now assuming those are covered, you have to deal with how the drums sit in the mix. Obviously this deals with volume, EQ & compression. All of these are easier to tweak if you have separate tracks for kick, snare, toms, OHs, etc. More on this later (and hopefully from some others, too). In the meantime, tell us what you're using for drums and how much editing capability you have.

I would add that a real drummer (good one that is) goes with the vibe of the music. Like going from a quiet part to a really driven part. The drummer puts that feeling into the playing with harder driving hits. A drum machine with even the best samples cannot easily achieve this. They are getting close with the samplesets, but it is always up to you to program it like a real drummer would play.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

As far as making fills sound more real, to me it's all about accents. You can take a simple, constant 16th note roll, and put accents anywhere you want to create more musicality.

so I can randomly select one here and there, and increase it's gain to do this?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

so I can randomly select one here and there, and increase it's gain to do this?

Not randomly. Pick 'em purposefully. You are in effect playing the drums, play them with some soul.

[Soliloquy]Am I the only one who remains totally mystified how it is people wait until after they hit the record button to have these questions?[/Soliliquy]

G.

 

[RAMI]

Not randomly. Pick 'em purposefully. You are in effect plaything drums, play them with some soul.

Without giving you an online drum lesson, that's the best answer you can get.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

aight thanks fellas

 

[mixsit]

[Soliloquy]Am I the only one who remains totally mystified how it is people wait until after they hit the record button to have these questions?[/Soliliquy]

G.

At certian points along our learning curves it's part of the process of finding out what works and why if it doesn't? They give you the book, you see it done, 'it looks easy' ..then we get it the flight sim., crash, then understand.

 

[Waffleness]

Diablo piano is awesome. I really like that track.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

At certian points along our learning curves it's part of the process of finding out what works and why if it doesn't? They give you the book, you see it done, 'it looks easy' ..then we get it the flight sim., crash, then understand.

Yeah, I guess so. It just seems so often that the order of operation is off, though; that there are so many that jump to the recording stage before they actually have something to record.

G.

 

[hardwire666]

I used to use Reason Drum kits 2.0 for every thing. Honestly it's where I picked up most of my experience. While I still love RDK2.0 for some stuff, it takes a decent amount of work to make them convincing. Basically all Propellerhead software did was record the different kits for you, and make a vast library of quality one hits. Every thing else is left up to you, including humanizing.

So, things you will generally need to worry about doing on your own are panning, levels, eq'ing, and compression. Then on top of that velocities, if you are using reason 4 then you can also use Re-Groove to help humanize the timing of your tracks. RDK2.0 can yield GREAT results, but it can take sometime, and sleepless nights to squeeze the goodness out of it.

Also if your using reason 3.0 or higher make sure to take advantage of the mastering combinator patches. Notably the de-digitizer, and if i remember correctly the gentle mastering patch. The Rock mastering patch is pretty good too. I used the de-digitizer patch on EVERY song, in conjuntion with either the rock, or gentle patches. It has been about a year since I have used reason for drums, so my brain is a bit fuzzy. If any of this is off slightly forgive me.

Also If you are using a DAW application like Sonar, or Cubase, ect.ect.ect. Personally I would say invest in some thing Like ToonTracks Superior Drumer2.0, since I started using easy drummer I haven't gone back to Reason for natural sounding drums, with out having a real drummer.

and that's my $0.02

 

[stupidfatnugly]

Diablo piano is awesome. I really like that track.

yeah that song let me know that I need to learn to mix well b/c the piano all by itself sounds great.

I tweaked the drums on that song in particular: "Addict"

I tried to imagine how it would sound if I was playing real drums so I got the accents on the snare crescendo in the very beginning the way I thought it would go. is it right or close?

 

[stevieb]

Well, of course drums suck. All drums do- after all, they ARE played by drummers!

JK.

 

[stupidfatnugly]

Also if your using reason 3.0 or higher make sure to take advantage of the mastering combinator patches. Notably the de-digitizer, and if i remember correctly the gentle mastering patch. The Rock mastering patch is pretty good too. I used the de-digitizer patch on EVERY song, in conjuntion with either the rock, or gentle patches. It has been about a year since I have used reason for drums, so my brain is a bit fuzzy. If any of this is off slightly forgive me.

Also If you are using a DAW application like Sonar, or Cubase, ect.ect.ect. Personally I would say invest in some thing Like ToonTracks Superior Drumer2.0, since I started using easy drummer I haven't gone back to Reason for natural sounding drums, with out having a real drummer.

and that's my $0.02

thanks for that I have 3.04 I believe and protools le 7.3

 

[Waffleness]

I read the title of this topic, and got a mental image of a drum kit, with a face on the kick drum looking upset and saying "Shut up, your mum sucks"...

 

[mcmetal]

Well, of course drums suck. All drums do- after all, they ARE played by drummers!

JK.

How many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb-just one to hold it and let the world revolve around him.

I just started using drum samples from beta monkey and so far i dig them a lot.Bad thing about them though is i won't be able to mix each drum individually.They come with the samples already panned across the stereo spectrum.The fills are mixed i think from behind the kit.Whether this is a bad thing or not is still undecided but at least the samples are played by a real drummer.

 

[WhiteStrat]

How many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb-just one to hold it and let the world revolve around him.

I just started using drum samples from beta monkey and so far i dig them a lot.Bad thing about them though is i won't be able to mix each drum individually.They come with the samples already panned across the stereo spectrum.The fills are mixed i think from behind the kit.Whether this is a bad thing or not is still undecided but at least the samples are played by a real drummer.

I use Beta Monkey too and I really like them. Even though you can't mix each drum, remember that they include numerous single hits from each kit on the disc. I'll often build my own kick track so I can beef it up, or build some accents with cymbals, snares and toms. For prerecorded drum loops, its very flexible.