Drummer/vocalist on-stage monitoring problems

[Mr. Moon]

Sorry, but this is the only single forum which addresses all the issues that we're currently experiencing with live shows. Here we go:

We have a drummer who sings well and has begun singing lead vocals in several songs and harmonies in most of the songs we perform. He is an excellent power drummer who does NOT hit softly, and he cannot do so (think Bonham and you'll understand). During rehearsals, we can adjust the PA so that he can hear himself and the other vocalist well enough (even with having earplugs in) to sing the leads and harmonies perfectly.

Our problem: Live gigs are a completely different story. He is unable to hear himself or the other vocalist in the stage monitors above his kit and the bass and guitar in the stage monitors. We have tried lowering/raising levels of instruments and vocals in the monitors for him, but if the instruments are dropped too low, he can't hear them, and this causes a problem as he cannot figure out what song we're playing, etc.(duh!). Raising the levels of the vocals in the monitor mix doesn't work, as the drum kit then gets picked up way to much through his vocal mic and starts to feed back, which is not good. As it stands, he cannot sing harmonies or leads well live, because he can't hear himself at all.

He is currently singing through an SM58. We have tried one of the Audio Technica dynamic headset mics, and that didn't work well. He had a crown condenser headset mic, and that was even worse (way too sensitive).

I was thinking that perhaps if he were to use an in-ear monitoring solution, he could then unplug the onstage monitor speaker (use that as the input for the in-ear system), and turn up the vocals in the monitor mix so he could hear them without getting all the feedback. Would this work?
…If so, what are some good products to look at?
…If not, what are your suggestions to solve this problem?

Any (relevant) ideas/comments/suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

-mr moon

 

[michaelst]

Mr. Moon...

That is indeed the best solution. Our drummer, who also sings leads and harmonies, uses a Shure PSM200 hardwire with E5 plugs and it not only allows him to hear himself and the other vocalists, we give him the keys and guitars and a bit of his drums in his mix. The lack of a excruciatingly loud monitor on stage has allowed every one else to turn down - leading to a much better mix from the PA for the audience.

The other great thing about EIM is they are pretty much set-it and forget it. Since there is no feedback problems to deal with depending on the venues' accoustics, the levels and mix stay pretty much the same.

Our keyboard player and lead vocalist have since gone to wireless EIM and the results have been extremely good. No feedback problems, set and forget mixes, less gear to hump and much better sound for the audience.

 

[distortedrumble]

that could work. you said his stage monitors were up above his kit? try to put it beside him, behind him or diagonally behind him. maybe getting him his own 12-15" powered monitor. try putting your amps closer to him, or if you can point the amp at him then try that. does anyone else know how to play drums? you could switch off when he does the main vocals. you're dealing with a problem that takes comprimise. he cant play soft because he doesnt want to. i wouldnt expect him to play too softly but he isnt going to get the same level of hearing everything (including himself) that your front man or the guitar or bass would. hes behind an instrument with no electric volume control. thats all in him.

 

[Mr. Moon]

that could work. you said his stage monitors were up above his kit? try to put it beside him, behind him or diagonally behind him. maybe getting him his own 12-15" powered monitor. try putting your amps closer to him, or if you can point the amp at him then try that. does anyone else know how to play drums? you could switch off when he does the main vocals. you're dealing with a problem that takes comprimise. he cant play soft because he doesnt want to. i wouldnt expect him to play too softly but he isnt going to get the same level of hearing everything (including himself) that your front man or the guitar or bass would. hes behind an instrument with no electric volume control. thats all in him.

He' s one of those drummers who just seems completely incapable of playing at any level below "11" when we play out live. If we're working on a new tune, arranging and stuff like that, he can play soft. But the second the "record" button is pushed in a session or we're playing a gig, bam! He's loud again.

When we rehearse in a small studio/room, it's no problem as we can set things up so there's no feedback even at super-high volume levels. This problem only occurs at gigs, which is "bad!" At most gigs the monitors are placed behind and to the right side of him (his right-hand side), so they end up aiming directly at his mic, which is not good. Maybe a combo of ear monitors and placing the mic off his left-hand side may help....

-mr moon

 

[Ed Dixon]

In-ear is the way to go. The Shure PSM200 is a good one, which is what we use.

There are two advantages to in-ear. The first is obvious, as you hear just what you want in your ear. The other is that they act as fairly effective ear plugs, which blocks out a fair percentage of stage noise from drums, or anything else.

Ed

 

[HangDawg]

the monitors are placed behind and to the right side of him (his right-hand side), so they end up aiming directly at his mic

Ummmmm I think a DUH!!!!! is in order.







Sorry couldn't help it.

 

[Mr. Moon]

Ummmmm I think a DUH!!!!! is in order.







Sorry couldn't help it.

-mr moon

 

[mrface2112]

i'm a drummer who sings, and i deal (well, dealt) with this problem whenever we played.

for practices, we mic'd everything up and everyone got their own mix in cans. wonderful monitoring solution.

for gigs, we only had 1 monitor mix and usually only ran vocals through it. i'm a right handed drummer, and would put my monitor underneath my hihat, aiming up at me. my mic swung around from my left (overtop of the hihat), and i had no problems with feedback. i always used a sennheiser 835 for my vocals, and it had a switch so i could turn it off whenever i wasn't singing.

if we'd kept that lineup together (i'm playing guitar now), i would've gotten myself some "ears" (IEMs).


cheers,
wade

 

[Mr. Moon]

OK. So I think IEM is the way to go. Problem is WE ARE POOR! So, we don't have the dinero (cash, coin, mullah, bucks, etc.) for the Shure wireless deal ($600.00 street) with a base station and remote unit. I was thinking about going the inexpensive route and trying one of the $130.00 Rolls WMP61's (link). I have read various reviews around the web (forums and vender sites), and basically it *is* of cheaper build quality and doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the Shure PSM200 (link), but as this is only for monitoring and doesn't (directly) impact our instrument/vocal sound, I was thinking that it might be a way for us to feasibly afford this kind of solution. I have found vendors who will allow returns on these items, so I could always return it if it does proove to be a complete P.O.S.!

Thoughts?

-mr moon