Drum Triggers- Friend or Foe?

[guitarded2]

I know this topic has been discussed alot but I haven't seen any posts recently. I had a conversation yesterday with a few engineers/drummers and It was quiet clear that I was the only one opposed to the idea of drum triggers in recording-- particularly Drumagog. It wasn't a long debate but eventualy I started to see eye to eye with them-- kind'a. The whole perspective I had was that recording music was an act of capturing the sound. IMHO I felt that drum triggering was no better than a drum machine. The reason is because I hear lots of songs on the internet where It is so easy to tell that people are using a drum machine if not for the mechanical timing and consitency it is because of the samples. I don't mean the quality of it but the actual sound. I have heard so many songs that it is very obvious to tell exactly which drum machine/software they used (FL, Reason, yada yada). Yesterday was the first time I had heard of a drummer promoting drum triggers. I may be sheltered but if im going to pay 3k for some nice shells why should I use drumagog? It seemed like people used drum machines because they couldn't play/afford a drum machine. Now it seems people use drumagog because they can't get a good mic/pre/tone. I learned that alot of professionals are using them today. Is this because of the ability to "blend" said sounds? Do they have any other advantages beside cool techno synthish samples?

 

[Greg_L]

I'm not really advocate of triggers. Maybe I'm a purist. I don't know that much about them, but they seem kind of dumb. What's the point of even having drums? Why not just put the triggers on some pots and pans or carboard boxes? If you have drums, and physically have to play them anyway, what's the point of triggering them?

I don't really have a problem with MIDI drum software for home recordists because not everyone has drums, knows how to play them, or lives in an environment in which they can bang on them all the time. So thats cool with me.

 

[Farview]

There are a lot of reasons for using triggers.

1. Sound enhancement. The drummer for Sevendust has 3 triggers and a mic on his kick. The triggers are set to go off at different velocities (how hard he hits it) and all these sounds are blended to get one 'larger than life' sound that you couldn't get from a good shell, good tuning and mic placement.

2. Consistency.

A.The faster you play, the less force you can hit the head with. The less force, the less attack. The less attack, the less clarity. This is exactly the opposite of what you need when playing at blinding speed, the triggers can give you the attack without having to hit the drum as hard.


B. It can also smooth out the dynamics of the performance. This is essential with the amount of limiting and compression we use today. Having a dynamic drum performance trying to compete with a wall of guitars that has no dynamics doesn't work out too well.

C. In a live situation, drums are victims of humitity, elevation, and other things that will change daily on tour. The samples will always stay the same, so you can count on the sound of them.

D. If you sample the drums sounds off of your albums, you can load up the appropriate sample set from the album the song you are playing is off of. Pantera did this, it helps the songs feel right.

3. Not everyone has a great room to record the drums in. A great kit in a crappy room still sounds bad.

4. If the drummer only has one snare drum and it's inappropriate for a couple songs you do. (think power ballad with a piccolo snare)



You seem to be confusing triggers and drum machines.

Drum machines play the part and are generally used by people who don't have drummers, you can't really blame them for that.

Triggers are still played by the drummer, he has to do the same thing he would on a real kit. It's not cheating, it's not any easier to play. (it's a little harder in some instances) The only difference between playing a triggered kit is where the sound is coming from.

 

[Farview]

I'm not really advocate of triggers. Maybe I'm a purist. I don't know that much about them, but they seem kind of dumb. What's the point of even having drums? Why not just put the triggers on some pots and pans or carboard boxes? If you have drums, and physically have to play them anyway, what's the point of triggering them?

Just as an example:

Kiss has used triggers live since the early 80's. Mainly to get that punchy sound.

On the reunion tour, they used triggers because Peter Criss's arthritis was so bad that he couldn't hit the drums hard enough to make them sound like anything. (much less hit them hard enough so that the monitors wouldn't feed back)

 

[Greg_L]

Just as an example:

Kiss has used triggers live since the early 80's. Mainly to get that punchy sound.

On the reunion tour, they used triggers because Peter Criss's arthritis was so bad that he couldn't hit the drums hard enough to make them sound like anything. (much less hit them hard enough so that the monitors wouldn't feed back)

I don't know about since the early 80's, but I do know about Peter Criss using them later on the reunions.

You made some points about giant national touring acts. That's great for them in 20,000 seat arenas. What about joe-blow recording in his basement or playing a small club? I'd personally rather hear real drums really played by a real person with real sound being picked up by real microphones.

 

[Farview]

What about joe-blow recording in his basement or playing a small club? I'd personally rather hear real drums really played by a real person with real sound being picked up by real microphones.

Joe blow in his basement won't have a room that will make the drums sound as good as they should.

Small clubs, at least the ones around here, are ill-equiped to make even a good kit sound like anything. Triggers will allow you to send the board a pre-mixed drum feed that the sound guy will have a hard time screwing up.

It also gives you the opportunity to set your drums up in a way that would make it hard, if not impossible, to properly mic it. (for example having 6 rack toms mounted at an 85 degree angle to the ground clustered around the snare, then having the cymbals mounted 1 inch above the toms)

They are also helpful for people with huge drumsets. Having 13 mics open on any stage around the drumset is a problem, both for ambient noise and feedback. (another reason for kiss to use then in the early 80's, the drums were mic'd to backup the triggers, because the triggers weren't very good at the time.)

And again, if you are playing super-fast death metal, you don't have much of a choice. Tapping 16th notes on a kick drum at 225 bpm will just sound like an annoying rumble through the mic.

 

[Polska_77]

D. If you sample the drums sounds off of your albums, you can load up the appropriate sample set from the album the song you are playing is off of. Pantera did this, it helps the songs feel right.

that sound pretty gay, and I'm really disapointed they did that... that makes me a very sad panda

 

[Greg_L]

Joe blow in his basement won't have a room that will make the drums sound as good as they should.

Small clubs, at least the ones around here, are ill-equiped to make even a good kit sound like anything. Triggers will allow you to send the board a pre-mixed drum feed that the sound guy will have a hard time screwing up.

It also gives you the opportunity to set your drums up in a way that would make it hard, if not impossible, to properly mic it. (for example having 6 rack toms mounted at an 85 degree angle to the ground clustered around the snare, then having the cymbals mounted 1 inch above the toms)

They are also helpful for people with huge drumsets. Having 13 mics open on any stage around the drumset is a problem, both for ambient noise and feedback. (another reason for kiss to use then in the early 80's, the drums were mic'd to backup the triggers, because the triggers weren't very good at the time.)

And again, if you are playing super-fast death metal, you don't have much of a choice. Tapping 16th notes on a kick drum at 225 bpm will just sound like an annoying rumble through the mic.

You make valid points. I just can't get my head around that kind of stuff. It just seems cheesy.

 

[Dogman]

You make valid points. I just can't get my head around that kind of stuff. It just seems cheesy.

While it's not teh most "purist" way to do things, think about it...most people at a concert aren't musicians, and would probably bitch if they heard stuff less than stellar...They want the album sounds.

Not to justify anything, but look at all the lipsyncing going on...

I want to hear the real deal, but if I hear a fuckup, I just know they are human. If some people hear a fuckup, they are "so dissapointed"....

 

[fastisgood]

Drum triggers are fun to use, and as was already stated, can give that "BOOM" that a regular drumset just cannot deliver by itself, but, the sound will definitely be more processed. For recording, I use a Yamaha dtxtreme IIs, which allows me to insert my own samples and layer different voices on top of each other (up to six voices on some pads). With this electronic set I can easily sculpt my perfect sound and be ready for recording in the blink of an eye. Live, I would never use an electronic kit or triggers, but that's because I like acoustic drums live better, even if you do need to mic. them. For home recording, though, I definitely prefer electronic.

 

[Farview]

You make valid points. I just can't get my head around that kind of stuff. It just seems cheesy.

Why? It's not like the drummer isn't playing it. Do you think it's cheezy when a keyboard player plays a piano sound on a sampling keyboard instead of a 9 foot grand piano?

I was backstage at Ozzfest a couple years back, there was only one band that didn't have triggered drumsets.

 

[Farview]

that sound pretty gay, and I'm really disapointed they did that... that makes me a very sad panda

You must be one of the only people on the planet that didn't know that Vinnie's drums were triggered. It's so obvious.

 

[Greg_L]

Why? It's not like the drummer isn't playing it. Do you think it's cheezy when a keyboard player plays a piano sound on a sampling keyboard instead of a 9 foot grand piano?

I was backstage at Ozzfest a couple years back, there was only one band that didn't have triggered drumsets.

For the record, I think any keyboard is cheezy.

I understand that the drummer is still playing. You're talking about good drummers with good equipment. I figure that they should be able to sound good live. You made some good points and I can see the benefit in some cases of using triggers. I just think of my own drumming - live and recorded - and I just wouldn't feel right about using them. It just seems so lame.

 

[guitarded2]

Why? It's not like the drummer isn't playing it. Do you think it's cheezy when a keyboard player plays a piano sound on a sampling keyboard instead of a 9 foot grand piano?

I was backstage at Ozzfest a couple years back, there was only one band that didn't have triggered drumsets.

In that case the keyboard player chooses the voice not the engineers.

There are a lot of reasons for using triggers.

1. Sound enhancement. The drummer for Sevendust has 3 triggers and a mic on his kick. The triggers are set to go off at different velocities (how hard he hits it) and all these sounds are blended to get one 'larger than life' sound that you couldn't get from a good shell, good tuning and mic placement.

2. Consistency.

A.The faster you play, the less force you can hit the head with. The less force, the less attack. The less attack, the less clarity. This is exactly the opposite of what you need when playing at blinding speed, the triggers can give you the attack without having to hit the drum as hard.


B. It can also smooth out the dynamics of the performance. This is essential with the amount of limiting and compression we use today. Having a dynamic drum performance trying to compete with a wall of guitars that has no dynamics doesn't work out too well.

C. In a live situation, drums are victims of humitity, elevation, and other things that will change daily on tour. The samples will always stay the same, so you can count on the sound of them.

D. If you sample the drums sounds off of your albums, you can load up the appropriate sample set from the album the song you are playing is off of. Pantera did this, it helps the songs feel right.

3. Not everyone has a great room to record the drums in. A great kit in a crappy room still sounds bad.

4. If the drummer only has one snare drum and it's inappropriate for a couple songs you do. (think power ballad with a piccolo snare)



You seem to be confusing triggers and drum machines.

Drum machines play the part and are generally used by people who don't have drummers, you can't really blame them for that.

Triggers are still played by the drummer, he has to do the same thing he would on a real kit. It's not cheating, it's not any easier to play. (it's a little harder in some instances) The only difference between playing a triggered kit is where the sound is coming from.

Well I was directing this to home recording particularly. There were some good statements made and they do make sense. It feels like even though the drummer is playing the notes they aren't neccesarily making the sound. Most of the statements I've heard in the triggers deffense were compensation for bad drum technique. It may be miss use but It seems like an easy way out for some people.



Have a problem EQ'n that bass or snare?
Use drumagog.


I have heard alot of great recordings without triggers and fast double bass lines. It seems like a let down for me when I hear a decent recorded snare but then I read up on what the following thread says was used and it usually comes down to triggers. I guess it could be used as cheating but not always. You're right though when I think about what you said It can be helpful but personally it bothers me because I'm not playing a cheap kit. It is like buying a mesa boogie rec guitar amp and the recording engineer plugs you into a tiny little digitech pedal because he can't mic your amp.

I agree with you on the consitency/dynamics but im still a bit iffy on the use for an "easy way out."

The connection I was trying to make with drum machines is in the samples they use partiularly the default generic samples. Go to soundclick.com and browse a bit im sure in twenty minutes you will hear the same exact samples used over and over. Do professionals record a bass/snare drum hit and put that into the form of a sample? I'm a bit of a n00b on this topic but if everyone is using these triggers where are the samples comming from, theyre own recorded samples or a giant library somewhere?

 

[Farview]

In that case the keyboard player chooses the voice not the engineers.

Same with the live performance using drum triggers. In the studio, it could be either the drummer or the engineer. But, I gotta tell you, as a producer I have changed many a keyboard sound from what the key player used. Just to get things to fit in the mix better.

Well I was directing this to home recording particularly. There were some good statements made and they do make sense. It feels like even though the drummer is playing the notes they aren't neccesarily making the sound.

Right, just like a key player.

Most of the statements I've heard in the triggers deffense were compensation for bad drum technique. It may be miss use but It seems like an easy way out for some people.

It's not an easy way out for the drummer, he is still playing.

Have a problem EQ'n that bass or snare?
Use drumagog.

If you can't EQ, you aren't going to get much out of Drumagog. The samples that you get won't magically fit perfectly into your mix. You still have to EQ them. It can help you when the drummer just has the wrong snare for the type of song he is playing.... But that isn't talent shortcoming on eith the drummer or engineers part, it's normally a money issue. (How many snares, or entire kits, can the drummer afford to own?)

I have heard alot of great recordings without triggers and fast double bass lines.

Are you sure?

It seems like a let down for me when I hear a decent recorded snare but then I read up on what the following thread says was used and it usually comes down to triggers.

There is a snare sample layered over the real snare on the Metallica black album. They didn't do that because they didn't have the money, time, equipment or talent to do it right. They did it because it enhanced the sound and got it closer to what it needed to be in the mix.

I guess it could be used as cheating but not always. You're right though when I think about what you said It can be helpful but personally it bothers me because I'm not playing a cheap kit.

Is someone forcing trigger on you?

It is like buying a mesa boogie rec guitar amp and the recording engineer plugs you into a tiny little digitech pedal because he can't mic your amp.

If you need a more processed guitar sound (for some reason) the boogie is not going to cut it. The digitech might be the right tool for the job. If you need a more Marshally or Fendery tone, a Pod might do it for you for those parts because the Boogie will be useless for that. It's all about context. A Fender Priceton is a great amp, but it's useless for Nu-metal, likewise a dual rec is useless for country.

I agree with you on the consitency/dynamics but im still a bit iffy on the use for an "easy way out."

Easy way out of what?

The connection I was trying to make with drum machines is in the samples they use partiularly the default generic samples. Go to soundclick.com and browse a bit im sure in twenty minutes you will hear the same exact samples used over and over.

I don't know anyone that triggers general midi drum sounds from their kit. There are several drum brains that have hundreds of sounds to choose from. The Alesis DM5 sounds are not the same as the Ddrum module sounds which are not the same as the Roland Vdrum sounds, etc....

Do professionals record a bass/snare drum hit and put that into the form of a sample? I'm a bit of a n00b on this topic but if everyone is using these triggers where are the samples comming from, theyre own recorded samples or a giant library somewhere?

Well, Drumagog comes with almost 4 gig of samples (a good portion of which I made), and there are sample libraries that you can buy for Drumagog. You can also sample your own kit and use those for samples. You can also borrow your buddy's really nice snare and sample that.

Another cool thing about sampling is that you can sample the drum under ideal conditions. Brand new head, pefectly in tune, multiple mics on one drum with no bleed, use an LDC (which normally you couldn't because it would be in the way of a drummer behind the kit, etc...

 

[guitarded2]

Ok, I understand everything you have explained but it does seem like an easy way out for someone who has horrible dynamic control. I guess its not cheating if everyone does it. I guess electronic drums will be the future of drums after all. No one is forcing me. I was with some people listening to their recording and it sounded horrible phase problems, snare drum and bass drum sitting in the back of the mix and horrible EQ--everything I had dedicated the past few years to learning how to fix. He said "no problem" and loaded drumagog. It seemed too easy but I guess thats not a bad thing at all is it?

The digitech analogy- I see what you mean because the drum trigger has an advantage over the real bass drum track. (the triggered sample is better than the actual sound of the bass drum sound.) The use of triggers from what I've gathered from is not to replicate a sound but to enhance a sound.

I guess it would be a good time to say I don't fancy keyboards either for non-synth sounds. Keyboards that use the grand piano voices are similar to drum triggering but I thought that drumagog and programs were only used to fix errors in human error rather than enhancement. Keyboards can't do that unless you record in midi,

Thanks for enlightining me I'm going to give triggers another chance.

 

[Polska_77]

You must be one of the only people on the planet that didn't know that Vinnie's drums were triggered. It's so obvious.

I knew perfectly well his drums were triggered, I was reffering to the part about switching the samples to match the album the song was off of.

There is a snare sample layered over the real snare on the Metallica black album. They didn't do that because they didn't have the money, time, equipment or talent to do it right. They did it because it enhanced the sound and got it closer to what it needed to be in the mix.

Cool video about how they recorded the drums for the BA
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=zm80RvTbGfE

 

[Farview]

I guess it would be a good time to say I don't fancy keyboards either for non-synth sounds.

But, I'm sure you see the reason why people run around with keyboards instead of grand pianos. Dragging a piano to a club would suck, it also wouldn't stay in tune for more than a day if you were moving it around all the time.

Keyboards that use the grand piano voices are similar to drum triggering but I thought that drumagog and programs were only used to fix errors in human error rather than enhancement. Keyboards can't do that unless you record in midi,

Thanks for enlightining me I'm going to give triggers another chance.

Drumagog doesn't 'fix' anything about the performance. You can set it to track the dynamics of the performance. It doesn't change the timing of the performance at all. The engineer would have to fix the performance before inserting drumagog to replace the sounds.

Sometimes I replace the drums with samples of the same drums. About a year ago, I got a rash of 'jazz guys' that were in metal bands. (as in, "sorry dude, I play with dynamics") They also had their kits set up in such a way that all the tom mics were pointing at the snare, the cymbals were 3 cm above the rims of the toms, and the hihat overlapped the snare.

This will cause bleed and phase issues that no engineer will be able to do anything about. It also didn't help that these guys love mastersound hi-hats (the loudest hats ever) and like to gently tap on the drums.

when I played it back, they would ask why the hats were so loud and why they couldn't hear most of the snare work. I would tell them that that's how their 'dynamics' sit against a wall of guitars.

The band has two choices at that point:
1. Pay for more studio time and get the drummer to change his style and kit setup overnight and get a good performance again. (this could take a few days)
2. Replace the hits with samples of his own kit, smooth out some of the inappropriate dynamics and send him on his way, hopefully realizing that he is not in a jazz band. (This will take a couple hours)


I've found that most of the people who think that triggering drums is 'cheating' either: a.) don't understand the process b.) are confusing triggers with a drum machine c.) don't realize that most of the drums they have heard in the last 20 years have samples in them d.) are guitar players that don't understand the process, are confusing triggers with drum machines and don't realize that the 'killer drums sounds' off their favorite CD are riddled with samples.

 

[Farview]

I knew perfectly well his drums were triggered, I was reffering to the part about switching the samples to match the album the song was off of.

I don't see why that would bug you. Guitar players do it all the time, as well as key players, the guy running sound will generally try to put the same vocal effects on the live vocal as was on the album, etc...

Cool video about how they recorded the drums for the BA
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=zm80RvTbGfE

If you look closely at the track sheet, you will see the track that says 'snare sample'.

Again, they weren't lacking time, talent, equipment, a good drum room, etc... they use the sample to turn what they had into what they needed.

The idea is to make a recording that sounds the way it needs to, how you get that done is not as important as getting it done. Otherwise, you are going to find yourself saying things like "the drums don't sound like (insert band name here) because we used real drums and they use samples". And it's always fun to make excuses for why your stuff doesn't sound like the similar stuff on the radio.

 

[carterschops]

if you play extreme metal, friend, on bass drums only. occasionally, a snare can be appropriate, take nick barker or hellhammer from dimmu borgir. for snare blasts at that speed it helps to have a consistent loud volume for the sake of the music and the audience. any tom or cymbal triggering sounds so fake it makes me cringe when i hear it. mixing both sounds isn't too bad an idea if it's done properly.