Driving Myself Insane Over Gear....!

[zed32]

this is kind of a long crazy rant, so feel free to ignore this post,

[crazy rant]
Ok everyone, this might seem kinda strange, but i think that i'm losing my mind here. as some of you may know, i have myself a new studio space that i'm in the process of setting up and treating. i think i took a step in the right direction by taking care of the room first before i went nuts spending big bucks on gear. but now this leaves me with sort of a dilema.
i'm in need of some upgrading all across my recording chain, but i'm afraid to buy any high quality gear for fear of wasting my money. its driving me crazy!


as of right now, i'm recording through a Firepod with very cheap mics and mixing out of very cheap monitors. i know that first of all i need to upgrade my computer itself to one thats more capable of handling some heavy recording duties. but here's where my problems begin...
i'm afraid to upgrade my mics because then my pres won't bring out the best in them. but i'm afraid to upgrade my pres because the converters are probably not good enough to justify spending a lot on pres. i'm afraid to upgrade converters because i probably wouldnt be able to notice the difference through my crappy monitors. i'm afraid to upgrade my monitors because by then i'll have spent all my money only to realize that maybe i'm just not cut out to be recording stuff. and so on and so on....

now my question for you all is: am i thinking too much into this, or am i right in my assuptions? i plan on recording music for a long long time, it's been a favorite hobby of mine for many years now and i cant see myself giving it up. is there a "gray area" in gear where everything meshes together? what i mean is: is there a good mic that won't outshine a good preamp that won't outshine the converters on my firepod? or am i just gonna have to break down and buy a much better interface? i really want to end up with the highest quality stuff i can get away with, and i'm not afraid to drop $1k on a single piece of gear in the future be it a mic or pre or whatever. i know its kind of off the wall...but this is the sort of stuff i find myself thinking about late at night, haha...

i know i have a long way to go before i can afford to start upgrading my stuff (i spent everything on getting my room ready), but i really don't want to do any half-assed upgrades. like upgrading my $200 mic to a $300 one or something like that. i'd rather fork over more money for a bigger upgrade. but then i'm afraid it will really expose the other weaker parts of my chain, so i'd be wasting my money. but then i know i wouldn't be able to get $10,000 together to upgrade everything all at once.
all this thinking has got my head ready to explode! maybe i'll go back to college and take out a student loan or something, haha...

well anyway, thanks for listening (or not)
any advice would be appreciated...
[/crazy rant]

 

[Kainz]

oh my!

Hmh.. Just upgrade everyhting! lol

I woud start with monitors. Good monitors are the most important thing to have. Start definitely from there. Also updating a computer isn't that expensive nowadays..

Second I would be looking some quality mics.

Third I would worry about converters and pres.

 

[zed32]

thanks. yeah i think my monitors need some serious help, especially now that im moving into a bigger and better treated room. as for the computer, i think thats going to actually be my next step, i'm gonna build (overbuild) the whole thing from scratch so it will cost me some.

 

[Kainz]

Yep, sounds good.

Definitely upgrade to some quality monitors next. With bad mics and okaysih pres/ADDA (which you seem to have) you can make quite nice records if you know what yuo are doing (especially since your room is well treated). But all this requires you to have good monitors. You can't mix or record even up to the level of your current gear if you don't have good monitors...

 

[zed32]

thanks...OK so now at least i have some direction to aim for. i appreciate the advice Kainz.

 

[Kainz]

thanks...OK so now at least i have some direction to aim for. i appreciate the advice Kainz.

No problemos!

From my experience the MOST underrated thing in home studios is the room acoustics. Everyone is dreaming of great AD/DA, $$$ mics and having 25 different pres for everything. With all these they would still be making barely medicore recordings (not to mention mixing..). This is due to the lack of skills and VERY BAD rooms.

If you have room(s) treated that is the best possible start when looking for great sound. Todays medicore mics (like StudioProjects etc) are infact rather good. Also pres and AD/DA in that Firepod are quite good also (just compare it to the products of the 90s or so.. Firepod is infact HIGHEND! ).

What I mean to say is that it is entirely possible to get awesome sounding records with just some medicore mics and Firepod. But that definitely requires you to have a good monitoring system (and of course some skills ). You need to hear what are you doing. Find the sweetest spots for the mics, evaluate the need of EQ, is this sound really natural now etc.. No can do without accurate monitoring.

So this said.. Get that computer fixed (maby even invest to UAD-1 FX card, those plugins rock!). Then get the monitors. Grab your favourite CDs and go and audition(!) all the monitors you are considering to buy. Don't be fooled to buy some of them just because you have heard so much good from them or because that or this dude/studio uses them. Instead it may be a good idea to make your "audition list" based to this feedback. But your ears are yours, not them. Find out what works for you. Audition, audition, audition! Pretty much the only way to go.

Next I would grab some quality mics. They have far bigger impact to the sound than pres. Consider pres as the "flavour". I would say it is maby the last 5-10% of the sound (considering your "basic pres" don't totally suck!). I believe the pres in the Firepod are quite ok-ish, nothing fancy or mind blowing but they will do their job quite well.

Then as a last thing I would check the "flavours" - pres and AD/DA. I'm not saying that pres and AD/DA do not really affect the sound or somehow underrate them. I mean that unless everything else is taken care of, I really don't see much benefit in getting new pres or AD/DA (unless they totally suck in the first place; which is not the case here I believe).

 

[Warhead]

I think Kainz should get "best advice" award today.

War

 

[Dogman]

Zed, also remember before buying any gear, to sit back a moment, and think about the purchase. I have bought so much stuff that was a decent upgrade, and then not long afterward found that for just a bit more money, I could have had much better equipement. Instead of buying stuff you will upgrade again very soon, second guess your purchase. If after more thought, it seems to be what you really want, you shouldn't have any regrets.

Just keeps you from wasting too much money on stuff you might not use very long, or worse yet, gear you are really not happy with. I don't have too much, but have made a few purchases that I should have just held out, and spent a bit more money for the next model up....

Just my rant, because I am not buying any new gear right now.
Ed

 

[acorec]

this is kind of a long crazy rant, so feel free to ignore this post,

[crazy rant]
Ok everyone, this might seem kinda strange, but i think that i'm losing my mind here. as some of you may know, i have myself a new studio space that i'm in the process of setting up and treating. i think i took a step in the right direction by taking care of the room first before i went nuts spending big bucks on gear. but now this leaves me with sort of a dilema.
i'm in need of some upgrading all across my recording chain, but i'm afraid to buy any high quality gear for fear of wasting my money. its driving me crazy!


as of right now, i'm recording through a Firepod with very cheap mics and mixing out of very cheap monitors. i know that first of all i need to upgrade my computer itself to one thats more capable of handling some heavy recording duties. but here's where my problems begin...
i'm afraid to upgrade my mics because then my pres won't bring out the best in them. but i'm afraid to upgrade my pres because the converters are probably not good enough to justify spending a lot on pres. i'm afraid to upgrade converters because i probably wouldnt be able to notice the difference through my crappy monitors. i'm afraid to upgrade my monitors because by then i'll have spent all my money only to realize that maybe i'm just not cut out to be recording stuff. and so on and so on....

now my question for you all is: am i thinking too much into this, or am i right in my assuptions? i plan on recording music for a long long time, it's been a favorite hobby of mine for many years now and i cant see myself giving it up. is there a "gray area" in gear where everything meshes together? what i mean is: is there a good mic that won't outshine a good preamp that won't outshine the converters on my firepod? or am i just gonna have to break down and buy a much better interface? i really want to end up with the highest quality stuff i can get away with, and i'm not afraid to drop $1k on a single piece of gear in the future be it a mic or pre or whatever. i know its kind of off the wall...but this is the sort of stuff i find myself thinking about late at night, haha...

i know i have a long way to go before i can afford to start upgrading my stuff (i spent everything on getting my room ready), but i really don't want to do any half-assed upgrades. like upgrading my $200 mic to a $300 one or something like that. i'd rather fork over more money for a bigger upgrade. but then i'm afraid it will really expose the other weaker parts of my chain, so i'd be wasting my money. but then i know i wouldn't be able to get $10,000 together to upgrade everything all at once.
all this thinking has got my head ready to explode! maybe i'll go back to college and take out a student loan or something, haha...

well anyway, thanks for listening (or not)
any advice would be appreciated...
[/crazy rant]

The #1 scientific approach to solving a problem is:

Only change 1 parameter at a time. Take your system into the treated room and try it. If upgrading, start with monitors and treated monitoring/mixing room. Then a mic, pre-amp etc. Work with each new component for at least a month. Keep the $$$$ in the wallet and only upgrade 1 thing at a time. Not only will you gain experience this way, you will *actually* understand what improved your situation and *how* it made a difference. Buy-it-all-now never solves any problem if you don't know what the problem is.

 

[SonicAlbert]

i'm in need of some upgrading all across my recording chain, but i'm afraid to buy any high quality gear for fear of wasting my money. its driving me crazy!

In reality, you've been wasting your money by *not* buying high quality gear. The money you spend on this better gear will be very well spent, and the gear will last you much longer. Fine gear can last a lifetime. Of course there needs to be some maintenance, but as far as sound quality, the gear can last forever.

The best way to approach your fear of wasting money is to break down your purchases into a specific order, and buy them one at a time, as has been suggested. I agree with the idea of buying monitors first. However, after that I don't completely agree with some of the advice given.

If I was to give a "best advice in this thread" award (to continue what Warhead started) it would go to Acorec, honorable mention to Dogman. No offense to anyone else, but Acorec is totally completely right on with his advice. Also with the order in which he suggests upgrading, which is key.

The part of kainz's advice I don't agree with is that mediocre mics nowadays are good. This is the kind of thinking that leads to yet another round of upgrades in a few years in my opinion. If you want to go quality, then go all the way. Get some *great* mics that will be lifetime mics.

Further, audio interfaces and computer gear are basically consumer items that get thrown away after a while, but I still can't agree that the Firepod is high end. It just isn't. I would also suggest going with fx/plugin purchases later in the process, not early in the gear buying order. You want to take care of the meat and potatoes before you have dessert. Otherwise, I think kainz has a lot of good things to say, I just wanted to respond to those specific areas. Just my opinion, of course!

One of the best ways to upgrade is in the order of your signal path. So first upgrade your mics, then preamps, then converters, then fx hardware and or/plugins. Of course, you have to have a way to listen to all this, so the first thing you do is put together your monitoring and your computer and sound card setup. It seems like you are already in progress on acoustically treating your studio space, which is fantastic.

The thing is, this needn't be a fearful process. It should be *FUN*!!!. Isn't shopping supposed to be fun? So have some fun with it, take your time. Thoroughly research every purchase, and by that I mean *try it out in person*. Reading these boards can be very confusing because everyone has their own opinion, and sometimes they are just opinions from people who have opinions (I include myself in that). So get out to the stores and try out this gear, one at a time. The only way to get to know it is to see and use it in person. I've been known to travel hours to check out gear. Really, it's fun. Just take your time and enjoy the search.

 

[Kainz]

The part of kainz's advice I don't agree with is that mediocre mics nowadays are good.

Well.. I said they are rather good. The difference in sound between good medicore mic (~250-500$) and $$$ money mic is big, but it isn't THAT big (especially to someone who hasn't learn to listen the difference). Hearing the difference is bit like when you start playing an instrument. When you start playing eg. guitar you really don't have that great sense of pitch, rhythm etc. It developes gradually over time. Also most people can't say which mic has "better sound" (if they even notice any great differences at all), they just hear some differences.

Overall I agree with you (getting good mics instead of medicore ones), but come on.. I would be willing to have the neccesary set of tools to record various sources than 1 or 2 1500$+ mics. You can get the job done with medicore mics. The result may not be THE ABSOLUTE BEST, but the job is done. Also quite often I choose medicore mic even if there are $$$ mics. Why? It just happens to have the sound I need at the moment. You can't ever have too many mics .

Further, audio interfaces and computer gear are basically consumer items that get thrown away after a while, but I still can't agree that the Firepod is high end. It just isn't. I would also suggest going with fx/plugin purchases later in the process, not early in the gear buying order. You want to take care of the meat and potatoes before you have dessert.

Eh..? I never said Firepod is higend today.. (huh?). I said it is highend compared to some of 90s devices.. and I add that it is almost highend compared to some "digital multitrack devices" sold today too. Those AD/DAs are superb when compared to some of those older units.

And about plugins.. Hmh, I can't see how he could mix without plugs? He hasn't money to buy hardware. He has to mix with something anyway? I would say that your idea is to take care of meat and potatoes without considering the plates and tools to eat? And you really can't go wrong with the UAD card and it really isn't even that expensive (even less expensive compared to it's hardaware counterparts...).

One of the best ways to upgrade is in the order of your signal path. So first upgrade your mics, then preamps, then converters, then fx hardware and or/plugins.

Consider how often is he actually upgrading his home studio? I see no point getting 1 or 2 great mics, but no plugins to mix? Getting more medicore mics may not be the best idea in a long run, but you need SOME tools to work with; you really can't saw with a hammer. And as I said, by carefully choosing few great medicore mics you can get good results. Not neccesarily the absolute best, but good/great results anyway.

So again.. I suggest he gets the acoustics done first (done), then he should get the computer ready to do some recording and mixing (and I think it could be wise to invest some money to the UAD; he'll great plugins which don't eat CPU). He has Firepod which I believe is decent enough for now. So next, and the most important here, would be the monitors. Then enough basic mics to do the job. Then comes the flavours: better mics, better preamps, better FX etc. (in that order)

This is my opinion and I have found it to be very good in practise.

 

[SonicAlbert]

But my impression of his setup is that he already has the mediocre stuff and is looking to upgrade. So recommendations of more mediocre mics is not taking him toward the high quality he seems to want, just yet another round of upgrades further down the road.

As far as the UAD, my only comment is regarding the order of purchase, as certainly fx are needed to mix.

I re-read your comment regarding the Firepod and you did indeed compare it to 90's devices, so I did misread that a bit. *However* (and you knew I'd say however didn't you?), if you compare a low to mid end product of today with a truly high end product of yesterday, you may still find the product of yesterday sounds better. Even if it's 16bit or whatever. It might not spec out as well, but there's something to quality design of any era.

Last year I bought a "vintage digital" reverb processor, the Klark-Teknik DN780. It's great! There's a certain quality of sound it has that still stands the test of time, a quality that better spec-ed but budget gear of today still can't match. Maybe it's the gigantic power transformer, maybe the analog curcuitry, or maybe that it is just ridiculously overbuilt all the way around.

This is my point: quality stands the test of time. If zed32 really wants the high quality he says, then he should spend the extra bucks and get away from mediocre mics and the kind of thinking that leads to compromises and further rounds of upgrades. Same for the Firepod, frankly.

You gave some great advice in another thread recently, about using a PCI audio interface and external converters. So I'm a little surprised to read some of your advice in this thread, which is kind of different from the approach you were advocating elsewhere. Especially since zed32 clearly stated he doesn't want to do little upgrades anymore. Your advice in that other thread was right on the money in my opinion.

By the way, I believe in the concept of not doing little upgrades. I personally don't believe there is such a thing as a little upgrade. A little upgrade is in fact what I call a side-grade. To truly upgrade, there are only big upgrades. If youcan't clearly hear it in a blind listening test, it's not an upgrade. Almost any gear in relatively the same price category will sound pretty much the same quality-wise, as a general rule. There are exceptions, but that is what I've found to be *generally* true.

Okay, enough rambling, sorry.

 

[Kainz]

Ah I agree..

Somehow I assumpted he was considering smaller upgrade. I mean from, to put it straight, shit to ok. Now when I did read it again I see that he already adresses things like upgrading from 200$ mics to 300$ mics etc. So apparently I was completely wrong and the quality is the way to go here.

If he is really serious about his studio I agree totally what you said. And it seems like I was "aiming a bit too low" here and that he really wants something good.

If he is really aiming high, then start from good mics (of course take care of the monitors and computer issues first!).

Overall to get better sound out you'll need:

- Good mics
- Good basic pres
- External AD/DA
- New, preferably digital, audio interface
- Alot outboard gear (the best solution) or some great plugins (URS, UAD).

All this will cost quite alot.. But definitely start from the mics here. I agree with the idea of upgrading the way your chain is: mic, pre, converter, fx.

I think I'v said enough for this thread (actually alot more than I have should heh.. )

 

[zed32]

thanks for all the tips. like sonicalbert says, i would really like to keep away from "side-grading" when it comes to mics. right now i just have a SM57, AKG C2000B and a couple of Oktava MC012s. so for my next mic i wouldn't want to spend under $600 (used or new) to get a real upgrade. some people may wonder why i want to spend so much money all across the chain if i'm not a pro, but the way i see it, in the time it takes me to save up for each new upgrade, i will have had time to upgrade my own skills through practice, so maybe it's justified?

anyway thanks again guys, i think i have a pretty good road map now as far as my future upgrades.

 

[talontsiawd]

I don't have much to add but this is a great read. I'm in the low end of things as a poor college student but trying to make things work. I have come to realizing to wait out until i can afford what i should really buy (still really cheap compared to most people around here). Great advice. THe only thing i have to add is that if you feel your computer is not up to the task, it's a great time to upgrade. It will probably be a relitively cheap upgrade compared to other gear. I'm looking into a new pc and i'm absolutely shocked about prices compared to when i bought my current one.