Dots Stereofield. How to measure?

[Booda]

I've been a Lurker here for a couple years and just recently started to post. Due to the fact that I want to start getting my Demo studio up to a, maybe say, Semi-Pro sound level.

I've been researching Mics, Pres and Comps. The excerpt below from Dots article "To Pre or Not to Pre" just hit me in the head. It makes so much sense and a great analogy.

I want to know is the Stereofield something that can be measured by a Pre's Specs or is it just what you hear and feel?

I have a Aardvark Direct Pro w/ pretty decent Pre's (I think better than VLZ-pro type) & want to get a new Pre amp such as the RNP or SyteK but only if they will be Substantially better for my recordings. ) Not just a different color. Other wise I'd rather save for a while and get something that'll show me the money.

Thanks for any replys,
Sid

excerpt from To Pre or not to pre...
"Imagine the stereofield being the size of a dollar. That guitar through a cheap mic pre might take up the size of a quarter. So, how many quarters could you lay on a dollar before you started running out of room? Not even 18. Try it yourself.

On that same dollar, how many heads from a straightpin could you fit? Probably a couple of hundred.
When you listen to an individual acoustic guitar track that's well-miked running through a really high-quality preamp — the sound of the guitar will take up about as much space as the head on a pin."

 

[littledog]

Nice image. Dot, did you make that one up?

Whether it has any correlation to a particular specification is highly doubtful. Sort of like a subjective religious experience - you're not going to get empirical corroboration.

 

[darrin_h2000]

You can fit that much more in the stereofield with a high quality pre before everything starts to sound to crouded because of noise and overtones you may get from something adding too much color, Im assuming thats why the DMP3 is liked so much by some, I get the same use from my Yamaha MLA7 pre. It tends to put a more detailed sound there. Thats why my colored pre only gets work on a couple of tracks, Vocals mostly because the oppisite works better there.

 

[Dot]

littledog, yes, that's my analogy.

Booda, there are some things that can be measured - for instance the "slew rate" [ literally the speed ] of a mic pre or – other electronic audio devices – can be measured. Transformerless designs typically have much faster slew rates.

If you look on the Millennia website for the specs on the HV-3D, you'll find the following:

SLEW RATE 35 dB Gain, +27 dBu Out > 25 Volts per microsecond

There are other specs as well such as TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION + NOISE, INTERMODULATION DISTORTION, PHASE RESPONSE, STEREO DEVIATION, COMMON MODE REJECTION RATIO...

I'm a luddite compared to someone like John La Grou of Millennia Media. For more info, read Millennia's essential design philosophy.

A mic pre can be compared to a camera lens, and as everone knows - the quality of the lense affects the quality and resolution of the picture. Now, sometimes, you don't want perfect "resolution" on your pictures, and might choose to use an effect. I've had conversations with Rupert Neve, and he classifies audio equipment into two categories - "accurate" and an "effect". If you want "accuracy" then you're often going to look at a transformerless mic pre - which is faster and has less coloration. "Faster" translates into increased depth and imagery. Transformerless designs can be found in such pres made by companies like Grace, Millennia, Sytek Earthworks and Phoenix Audio.

Some pres allow for both transformer and tranformerless operation, such as John Hardy M-1 and the Speck MicPre 5.0.

Then there are some companies who's philosophy it is to achieve a desired "effect", such as API, Great River w/ the NV series, TL Audio, some of the Neve designs and all of the current Neve emulator pres. These types of pres - while achieving a desired "sound" - are also slower than transformerless designs.

You can imagine, for instance, certain sounds and instruments that do not need fast pres - such as amps, bass, some organs, rock piano, rock vocals. A slower transformer-based pre also acts as a type of compressor - because faster signals are slowed down - which might produce a desired tone or "energy" to the sound, but it also takes away the accuracy of spacial dimension. [ but can actually create a type of artificial space which is desireable ] Transformers are made with iron and a degree of nickel. It's that "iron" that you can hear in a mic pre like the Great River NV series. It's that "ballsy" rock sound that adds a type of acoustic energy to your track. Great for rock, but not so good for classical or acoustic-based music.

Transformerless pres – being much faster – will pick up much more of the 3-dimensional space in the room being recorded - and also tend to have a higher resolution. These types of pres work well for classical recordings, drum OH's, some acoustic instruments and clear voices.

I've been wanting to write an article on how to chose and use mic pres - and perhaps this rant is the beginning of that. My article, To Pre or Not to Pre also started out as a rant in this forum.

My idea is that when people want to start investing in pres - first you need to determine the type of music you're doing. Secondly, I recommend that people look for a transformerless pre for their first 2-channel pre - because - it is the 2-channel pre that will be used most for drum OH's, acoustic gtr and stereo tracking of instruments. The second pre could be a single-channel. And for rock, there's some great choices like API, Great River MP-1NV. Of course you can get 2-channel "colored" pres, but you'd use them less for stereo and more for individual channels - like kick and snare.

There's a lot more to this, but that's some thoughts for now.

 

[littledog]

I'm a luddite compared to someone like John La Grou of Millennia Media. For more info, read Millennia's essential design philosophy.

well, i've been reading your posts for quite awhile, and I can't quite see how you can claim to be a luddite. where or when did you ever advocate eschewing technology? i always had the distinct impression that you were an unmitigated gear enthusiast!

 

[Dot]

Ha! I'd written "peon" and then switched it to luddite.

OK, switch it back to peon. : )

 

[Booda]

Dot, Thanks for your time and experience! Very helpfull.

B.

 

[Tonio]

Dot,
Thank you for the explaination of transfomerless vs "iron" pre's.

Based on your quote:
>>>"Faster" translates into increased depth and imagery. Transformerless designs can be found in such pres made by companies like Grace, Millennia, Sytek Earthworks and Phoenix Audio.
Some pres allow for both transformer and tranformerless operation, such as John Hardy M-1 and the Speck MicPre 5.0. "

what is your opinion on True Systems (P2)? It has a M/S decoder yummy..... slew rate is >40 V/uS

Also, how does transfomerless relate to DAW's, it seems DAW users are looking for something to get the signals "warmer" sorry for using that verbage. I realize it depends on what type of music is involved. Does transformerless pre's in general give more of the"sterile" sound? Also it seems that they(xfrmless) all have high impedance inputs vs. lower impedance of xfrm pre's.

So many choices to ponder........

T